Episodes

  • 7: Saying No

    7: Saying No
    Jun 17 2025
    Lara is speaking at a conference this week on a topic we immediately knew would be a good one for us to Unbox - Saying No. Non. Nej. Tidak. Hapana. It’s a word in just about every language because it’s a crucial one. (Rowan wanted to list about 40 more of them because he’s a language nerd. He would like to point out his self-restraint here.)Yet, despite its importance, the word “no” can come with a flurry of feelings both for the person who hears it and the one who says it. In this episode, we’re focusing on the latter. Why is saying “no” so difficult for some of us? What lessons did society teach us that make it harder? And what, if anything, can we do to make it easier? Is there a mindset shift that needs to happen? Does we get better at it over time?These are the thoughts we carry with us into this episode, and we hope something we said here helps make this small but powerful word a simpler one to use.No.Cha.Ora.Jo.(We’d better wrap this up before Rowan gets carried away again.)Transcript (please note, we don’t edit these so there could be some errors in the transcription)[00:00:00] Rowan: There are actually billions of people on the planet.you don't have to be the one to say yes to everything. it's that simple and I wish I had always known it was that simple, Because I didn't, I really thought for some reason that if I didn't do certain things, the sky would fall. Welcome back to unboxing it. I'm Lara.And I'm Rowan,[00:00:45] Lara: and we are going to talk about something today that I wanted to bring up. I am going to be speaking about this topic at a conference soon, and it is something that I know a lot of people struggle with and are honestly kind of afraid of, and it is the idea of figuring out how to say no.[00:01:05] Rowan: No, look, I just did it. Alright. Thanks for joining us today.[00:01:11] Lara: Um, yeah. Done just like this? No,[00:01:14] Rowan: no. Yeah. You can say it a bunch of way. You go nah or nope, nope. Is an option. Yep. I digress. I'm just, I'm just teasing. I actually have a really hard time saying no sometimes, so I'm looking forward to this episode.[00:01:26] Lara: Yeah, it's something that we struggle with. You know, I'm speaking at a conference where it's about specifically in the workplace. and so it can come up in lots of different ways where we feel like we should be agreeable, we should say yes, we should. And you know, should is not my favorite word. do what we can for people when they ask us to.However, doing everything all of the time for everybody, regardless of whether or not we have capacity is not good for anybody.[00:02:00] Rowan: You know what really gets me is that there are people who are just inherently good at saying no to things. I've met them, I've asked them for things, and they've said no.[00:02:11] Lara: Yeah,[00:02:11] Rowan: and I'm never really upset that they said no. I think just as somebody who's had to learn how to do it and doesn't always do it incredibly well, I'm more just in awe of them. And I think, you know, what is it? Is it upbringing? Were you just born like that? you know, or did you actually learn it?But it's so seamlessly a part of your life now that it doesn't seem like you're trying, it's just like rolls off the tongue.[00:02:40] Lara: It's probably all of those things depending on the person. And I think the more confident we are in why we're saying no, in the fact that we are not obligated to do things that don't work for us, the easier it gets to start saying it.And with so many of these things that we talk about, it's not easy at the beginning,[00:03:00] Lara: but it does get easier.[00:03:02] Rowan: it does get easier from experience. It really does. But let's start at the beginning, like why do you think some people have a hard time saying, no,[00:03:11] Lara: we're meant to be agreeable.That's how we've been told to be right. This goes back to all the societal expectations we have. We're meant to be agreeable. We're meant to try to be helpful as much as possible. we're meant to be selfless and saying no might feel selfish.[00:03:29] Rowan: Ooh, that word.[00:03:30] Lara: Mm-hmm.[00:03:31] Rowan: Nobody likes that word. Nobody likes to align themselves with the idea of being selfish.Right.[00:03:38] Lara: Which is what Saying no can feel like. If somebody asks you for something, and again, like I work with a lot of people, in their businesses who struggle with saying no. And some of it is they no longer have the capacity to do it all, and they really want to help, right? Somebody's asking them for something and they want to be able to do it.So how do you say no when it makes you feel like they need this help and I can do it. it feels so difficult and misaligned to say no, but again, we cannot do everything for everyone. It is simply not possible.[00:04:17] Rowan: So maybe also a bit of guilt or even shame, like if I don't help this person, if I don't do this thing that I know I technically can do if I ...
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    42 mins
  • 6: Asking for help

    6: Asking for help
    Jun 10 2025
    In a world where we revere how impressive people are for doing things “all on their own” no wonder we struggle with asking for help. This week we talk about why it’s hard to ask for help, how we can start to get more comfortable asking for help, and a little bit about how we just like each other.Things we referencedJenny Mitchell’s book - Embracing AmbitionOur episode on people pleasingTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: I'm making myself very vulnerable, and when I make myself very vulnerable, I'm opening myself up to criticism. And I think that is a big reason why people don't ask for help. Welcome to this episode of Unboxing It. I am Rowan.And I'm Lara.And today we are going to talk about a thing that I think is gonna make some people feel called out learning to ask for help.[00:00:51] Lara: Although I will say sounds like from some of the feedback that we've gotten from the podcast so far, potentially most of our episodes are making people feel called out.[00:01:01] Rowan: Yeah. That there's a lot of people who are like, I am like uncomfortable at how much I feel called out by this, but also thank you. At the same time. So I feel like all these societal messages that we are talking about really are in fact societal messages that are crossing generational gaps. and various other demographics.[00:01:25] Lara: Yeah. It's time to talk about them more. And so that's why we're just gonna keep unboxing all these things.[00:01:32] Rowan: That was really good. That was some good marketing there. Just bringing that segue back into the name of the podcast. That's why we have you here, Ms Wellman. So yeah, so today is, this is actually not as hard for me as I think it is for a lot of people, but I'm gonna tell you a bit of a backstory to explain why so.I wasn't necessarily raised to ask for help. We're Gen X kids, the two of us, and gen X kids were largely told to fend for themselves. Like it was really that whole stereotype of you know, being kicked out in the morning, in the summer and like, go find something to do. Running around with your friends, whatever it is you're doing all day and like coming home when the street lamps come on.Like that. That was my childhood. I, I don't know about you, Lara , but[00:02:22] Lara: yeah, I mean, I think I had a little bit more of an overprotective mom, but like compared to what that means now.[00:02:28] Rowan: Like that[00:02:29] Lara: is not, that is not what that meant then[00:02:31] Rowan: like Gen X overprotective. Yeah. It's very[00:02:35] Lara: different[00:02:35] Rowan: my mom used to be like you can go to the park, but you can't go alone. You have to go with a friend. And that was weird because most of my friends would just be going to the park on the road like that. Yeah. So, yes, I'm with you on that. I did sometimes have a check-in once or twice during the day, but really I learned that if there was a problem, I.I had to deal with it on my own. That takes me to the tender age of 14, and at 14 years old, I sat down with my parents after getting into a lot of trouble, getting kicked outta school running away from home, a whole bunch you know, and just being in a really bad place. And I said, I'm having a hard time.I can't stop drinking every time I'm stressed. I drink every time. I'm sad, I drink. And I don't know what to do about it. And to make a long story short, my mom got on the phone with anybody who would listen. She called everywhere. She talked to everybody, and finally somebody said, yes, we can get your child into a rehab center.So I went to a live-in rehab center for six months. That changed my perspective on asking for help because I did ask for help. I received the help and that help ultimately saved my life. I, I learned that I didn't have to go at it alone. And even in the rest of my life where I've run into tricky situations, I've been able to tap into the resources that are available and ask for that help.But that is me and that is a rare find. I have found.[00:04:14] Lara: Yeah. I think that there are some people who never want to ask for help. There are some people who will ask for help, like around certain categories of things, but other ones they won't. Right? Like there's certain ways that we feel about what it means about us to ask for help, and I think that's why most people don't wanna ask for help.It's not 'cause they're trying to not be a burden. It's because they're worried that by asking for help. That is going to say something about who they are.[00:04:43] Rowan: My partner went on stress leave a little while ago, and I remember even in that situation her feeling worried that going on stress leave, asking her doctor for help asking for that time off from her employer would put her in a situation where she might be viewed as less trustworthy.Less reliable, right? She would be seen perhaps as a burden, and if they were to do some layoffs, she might end up at the top of the list. So what do you do when you are dealing with something...
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    40 mins
  • 5. It's All in Her Head (or is it?)

    5. It's All in Her Head (or is it?)
    Jun 3 2025

    Will you look at that? Someone likes us enough to be on our podcast!

    Unboxing It had the pleasure of welcoming its first guest to the show: Misty Pratt, health communicator and author of the book All In Her Head: How Gender Bias Harms Women’s Mental Health.

    Because if there’s one thing we know about society, it’s that women are often told to take a seat. This is also true in healthcare.

    Misty talks to Rowan and Lara about how gender bias—*cough* the patriarchy *cough*—has led to poorer health outcomes for women throughout history, and how this trend continues today. Are women being taken seriously when they visit the doctor? Are their concerns being dismissed? Is everything being blamed on hormonal shifts when there can be other underlying issues at play?

    Tune in as Misty goes through the findings she hopes will help women receive better care and yeet the patriarchy into the sea.

    Misty’s Substack

    Misty’s Website (check out her book!)



    Get full access to Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan at unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe
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    40 mins
  • 4: Resting Isn't Lazy

    4: Resting Isn't Lazy
    May 27 2025
    In this episode of Unboxing It, we take a swing at the capitalist idea that rest is bad. Evil. The worst. And we’re terrible for giving in to it.How did we go from scheduled nap times in kindergarten (yeah, we miss those too) to believing we’ll never be successful—whatever that means—without two jobs, a side hustle, and a strict morning routine? Society teaches us all that productivity is king, and pushes us to keep going well beyond healthy limits.And even when we do manage to rest (which is getting harder to do with the rising cost of living), there’s that little voice inside that tells us how lazy we are for doing so.Today, Lara and Rowan take on the productivity monster and come up with strategies on how to tame it. Which is good because Rowan could use some help in that area.Referenced during the show:Lara’s book: You’re Not LazyThis Tiktok From Tara DifrancisoTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: I'm having a bit of a realization myself as I say this, but don't see what purpose it serves to be hard on ourselves when we don't have the energy.[00:00:31] Lara: Welcome to another episode of Unboxing It. Today we are gonna talk about one of my very favorite topics, and it's, a saying that I almost have coined as my own. I made stickers with it. Like I really love it because I think it's so important and it is resting isn't lazy.[00:00:50] Rowan: Oh, I hate this.[00:00:52] Lara: I love it.I love talking about this. I can't wait to dig into it with you. I can't wait to hear what other people take away from this and how they feel about it, but it's really just something that I think is so important to remind people. Resting isn't lazy.[00:01:11] Rowan: I completely agree with you, but by the way, for the record, when I say I hate this, I don't mean that I disagree.I mean that I feel entirely called out in it. So we're coming from this from two different angles, and I think that's gonna make it a really interesting conversation.[00:01:28] Lara: I agree. I agree. And you know, I talk a lot about lazy or the fact that I don't think lazy is a thing. but I think that it manifests in so many ways for people.Some of the time people don't rest because they think they should be productive. And the other flip side of it is. If they try to rest, they don't actually rest because they feel like they shouldn't be resting. Like there's two sides of it where it almost always is pushing people to feel badly about resting.[00:01:59] Rowan: Oh, what? what if you're both asking for a friend, a very, very, very close friend of mine who maybe doesn't rest until let's say, oh, I don't know. He gets diagnosed with burnout and then when he burns out, just feels bad about binge watching TV because he should be doing something productive with his time off.[00:02:22] Lara: Yes, because when you take time off for burnout. It is meant to be like a vacation, right? Like you're like, oh, now that I'm not doing this thing, now I should have time to catch up on all the other things I haven't done. So the whole topic is wrapped up in the fact that all of us have been taught our whole lives that productivity is the most important thing.[00:02:51] Rowan: Yeah, like the most important thing, because when you even think of the school system, like the standard North American school system, that's about all I can speak to here as a Canadian, it was designed to get these little worker bees out the door. It was designed that this particular system was built during the industrial revolution to get people.Educated enough to go out into the workforce. So we're taught right away that we need to be productive. It's, we're asked when we're like, in kindergarten, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And it's not about like, I want to be a good person, or I want to, you know, play with dogs No, no, no. It's about what job do you want?So it's drilled in from the get go.[00:03:37] Lara: Yeah. And. We tend to take most of our value out of our productivity, right? So how well have I done in my job? How much money have I made? How you know well, do I keep my house clean all of the, I worked hard and I've been productive. Stuff is stuff that people come and praise you for and therefore people think if I don't do that, what worth do I have in the world?[00:04:02] Rowan: By people you might mean me, although I have. Deprogram myself to an extent over time, but I would be lying if I said, this isn't something that is drilled so far into my psyche that every moment that I rest there's this like, some small part of me that's like, Hey Rowan, you know, the floor in the kitchen could really use mopping right now.Right? Like, this is what I get to, , it's like I can't just sit still. It, takes training. It's hard. I.[00:04:33] Lara: It does. It takes a lot of training. And again, so like for that two sides of it, there are the people who feel like when they're not doing something, they're like, I should be doing this, I should be doing this, I should be doing ...
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    44 mins
  • Episode 3: Perfectionism

    Episode 3: Perfectionism
    May 20 2025
    My, my, my… How are we already on our THIRD episode? If you’ve been listening in so far, thank you! And if you’re just checking us out for the first time, welcome! We’re glad you’re here.Most of us have expected nothing short of perfect from ourselves at one point or another. And why wouldn’t we? Society has done a banger of a job at making us believe it’s the most important element of success and happiness. Sure, it might not be fed to us exactly like that, but it’s hidden in other messaging: The parent who asked why you got 90% and not 100% on that math test, the “guru” motivational speaker who says you must follow these exact steps to reach the C-Suite, or the beauty professional who suggests a few injections could make your face look a whole lot better—when you’re just there to buy mascara.In this episode, we dig into the quest for perfectionism in a world where there is, in fact, no perfect. Humans are so silly. But don’t worry, we share some fun stories along the way.We also referenced two of our books. If you want to find out more you can do that on our author sites:You’re Not LazyLove Lives HereTranscript[00:00:00] Rowan: what I need to remember for myself is I bring my own uniqueness to anything that I do, so it doesn't have to this brand new, perfect, seamless concept.[00:00:37] Lara: Hi everyone. Welcome to unboxing it. I'm Lara Wellman. And I am Rowan Jte Knox. And we are back today with another episode to talk about another fun, and sort of mind bending. If you think about it, the topic, perfection,[00:00:54] Rowan: perfection or perf perfection or see this is, this is. I'm gonna tell this story at some point today because I think it's a good one.But are we doing perfection? Are we doing perfectionism? And what is the difference between the two? That's a good question, right? Like perfection is getting something perfect and perfectionism to me is like is seeking to get everything perfect.[00:01:21] Lara: I think it's both. I think it's both because. We are seeking to make things perfect, but I also think there is no perfect.[00:01:29] Rowan: It's true. There's no perfect except you, of course. But you know, this is how I score podcast points and I need to score podcast points because I'm gonna tell the listeners what happened today. it's actually in its own way. Perfect. so I texted you this morning and I said. Hey. so I did not write down what time we're recording this podcast today.I forgot to put it in my calendar. And also I did not write down what the topic was that we ended up choosing, 'cause we were going back and forth on a couple of them. so, could you give those answers and you said, we're recording at 11. The topic is, perfectionism. And I was like, well, isn't that just excellent?I'm like, I'm the opposite. I won, I won the perfectionism game.[00:02:17] Lara: Well, I think we both did because I was then able to say , I, I said, I. But can we, can we push it? Right. I guess. I don't feel ready. and I think that this sort of, you know, straddles between two of the topics. We're now talking about perfectionism and people pleasing because you're like, oh no, I have not.Been perfect. I have not figured out how to be ready, even though I don't want to be right now, and I don't wanna let you down and ask you to move things, but I did and it was fine. Right? Here we go. This is like us living our lessons in real time so that we can talk about them with full authenticity.[00:02:56] Rowan: It's true. And I was like, I could and, and, and believe me, I thought about it as a recovering people pleaser, I thought. About not telling you that I had no idea what we were talking about today, and I, I was like, I have media training. Like I can just go in there and not know what I'm doing and then wing it, you know, which can work out.Pretty well sometimes and kind of only sort of, well, other times. But regardless if you don't see the shock looked on my face, you're, you're just gonna be like, all right, cool. So he is not as prepared. But he did know what we were talking about today, but I definitely did not. I had no idea.And it's funny how hard we are on ourselves, right? Like as adults, we have. 50,000 things to think about every week. And I don't even think I'm exaggerating, especially these days. There's so much going on. Everything is moving so quickly and yet we're still focused on this idea of getting it all right all the time.it has been pervasive in my own life for sure.[00:03:56] Lara: So let's jump right into the whole topic 'cause this is one I like to talk about often. It's one that has come up. Very regularly for me as a business coach talking to people, helping people move forward in their business because perfectionism. Is the kind of thing that holds us back, right?So when we are trying to make sure that we are doing things, you know, quote unquote perfectly, we often don't think we've achieved that and therefore we are never ready to start, right?...
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    43 mins
  • Episode 2: People Pleasing

    Episode 2: People Pleasing
    May 13 2025
    SURPRISE! Episode 2 is dropping early! And it’s a doozy.If this episode on people pleasing isn’t relatable, we might be a little jelly. Like a lot of you, both of us grew up trying to make everyone around us happy at any cost. From not wanting to make others upset to trying a million different ways to make sure they kept liking us (ever try taping your allowance into a card so your best friend would keep playing with you?… No? Only Rowan, then?), we talk about it all in this episode.Have a listen, then drop a comment and let us know how people pleasing has impacted your life. We’d also love to hear what you’ve done, if anything, to start putting yourself first instead of others.Things we mentioned in the podcastRowan’s book One Sunny AfternoonWe Can Do Hard Things Podcast episode - How do we identify our real needs and finally get them met?Transcript (AI-generated and might have errors)[00:00:00] Lara: That was a huge aha moment for me was when I thought to myself, why would everybody like me when I don't like everyone?[00:00:08] Rowan: Yeah. You said that to me once. You were the first person to say that to me.When you said it, I thought about it for like 572 hours.[00:00:41] Rowan: Hello everyone and welcome to unboxing it. I am Rowan.[00:00:46] Lara: And I'm Lara.[00:00:48] Rowan: And today we are talking about people pleasing and I know a lot of you will be able to relate to that.I certainly can relate to that. What about you, Lara?[00:00:58] Lara: Uh, yeah. I've spent most of my life trying really hard to do it.[00:01:03] Rowan: I just want everyone to like me,[00:01:05] Lara: right. What?[00:01:07] Rowan: What's so wrong with that? Other than the fact that it can destroy you mentally, emotionally, and physically and probably spiritually.[00:01:14] Lara: Yeah. It's so much work to try to get everybody to like you all of the time, and on the other side, it's so crushing if you feel like you haven't succeeded.It's just so much work. Well, because you, you're, you're[00:01:28] Rowan: putting all this effort in. let's talk about what people pleasing is. First of all. How, how would you define people pleasing , if someone was to ask you, what does that even mean?[00:01:38] Lara: Well, it's a lot of things, but the first thing I think is it's, it's really, to me, the biggest thing is it's nobody being mad at me or nobody being like, not mad, but also not unhappy with me.Really, a lot of it is about my fear. I also do like to keep people happy and like make them content and make them feel happy. But there is a huge part of it for me that's about the fear of how they're gonna think about me and whether or not conflict is gonna come up.[00:02:07] Rowan: Disappointment.I think disappointment is a huge one for me. Like, don't let anyone down. Don't let anyone down. Right. And, and just the idea that I might do something that hurts someone or makes them feel bad or makes them feel like I don't care about them. I mean, it's just, that could be all encompassing.But I, I think, you know, if I were to describe people pleasing, it's everything you said. And then you also said something really important there, which was. Of course I like to make people feel happy. I like to do nice things for people, right? And, and this is where the line is drawn between something that is, a more typical human experience , and a healthy one, and something that becomes problematic or disorderly.And, I'll use the example of, let's do anxiety. There's a difference between having, anxiety, being anxious sometimes that's a very normal thing to feel. we all, you know, anxiety can, drive us. It can alert us to problems, it can keep us safe. But when it goes off the rails and it's all encompassing and it really interferes with our day-to-day lives, that is when it becomes a disorder.We can say that about a lot of different things. Feeling down versus feeling, you know, versus actually being depressed and, you know, even something like, A DHD, we can think about a DHD and how, extreme that can be and how much it can get in the way. But a lot of people feel distracted sometimes, or, you know, have some energy to burn or something, right?and, and I think people pleasing is the same thing where, yeah, of course we wanna do nice things for the people we care about. Of course we want to be decent human beings, even to strangers. Like we just wanna be part of this fabric of society. But when it becomes this, All encompassing need to get everyone to like you and to never, ever let anyone down or make them angry, or you're gonna fall apart.That's the problem. And unfortunately, a lot of us live with it.[00:04:10] Lara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's, comes up constantly, right? If you are afraid of letting people down, if you are afraid of doing something wrong, if you're. Like when it becomes that fear, it stops you from even trying some of the things you might do otherwise, right?Like how, what are all the things that we stop in our lives ...
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    37 mins