Episodes

  • EMDR and The Brain's Networks: A Conversation About Modern Neruoscience

    EMDR and The Brain's Networks: A Conversation About Modern Neruoscience
    Jul 3 2025
    Why Does EMDR Work? A Dive into Network Neuroscience and the Brain’s Healing PotentialEye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) has transformed trauma therapy, but an age-old question lingers: How does it actually work?For decades, the EMDR community has debated this question. Early theories focused on specific brain structures—the hippocampus for memory, the amygdala for fear, the prefrontal cortex for executive control. This modular perspective helped us make sense of a complex process. But neuroscience has evolved, and so has our understanding.In Episode 2 of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Bridger Falkenstien and Jen Savage explore a paradigm shift—from modular to network neuroscience—and how this broader lens reshapes the way we think about trauma, healing, and EMDR.From Modules to Networks: A Shift in Understanding the BrainTraditionally, neuroscience taught us that individual brain regions had specific jobs. The amygdala processes fear. The hippocampus handles memory. The prefrontal cortex regulates impulses.This modular view isn’t wrong—it’s just incomplete.In reality, the brain functions as a dynamic, interconnected system of networks. Modern neuroscience shows us that even when one area specializes in a task, it does so within a web of relationships. Trauma doesn’t just impact a single region; it disrupts the collaboration between networks.This is where network neuroscience comes in. Instead of asking which part of the brain?, we ask:Which networks are interacting?How are they integrating—or failing to integrate—under stress?How does EMDR facilitate re-integration?Meet the Big Three: Core Brain Networks in Trauma and HealingResearch in network neuroscience highlights three large-scale networks that play a crucial role in both trauma and recovery:1. Salience Network (SN)Function: Detects and filters what’s important—internal sensations, external stimuli, emotional cues—and decides what deserves attention.Trauma Impact: Becomes hypervigilant or shut down, tagging even neutral cues as threats.In EMDR: Helps shift between the past (default mode) and present (executive control).2. Default Mode Network (DMN)Function: Self-reflection, autobiographical memory, mentalizing (“Who am I? What happened to me?”).Trauma Impact: Loops in shame, rumination, and “frozen” identity narratives.In EMDR: Holds the story of the traumatic experience and the meanings made from it.3. Central Executive Network (CEN)Function: Working memory, decision-making, regulating attention.Trauma Impact: Goes offline in overwhelm, leaving clients unable to think clearly or plan.In EMDR: Critical for top-down regulation of subcortical processes.These networks don’t operate in isolation—they’re in constant conversation. Trauma disrupts that conversation, leading to disintegration. Healing requires restoring their collaborative flow.How EMDR Works in the Brain: Beyond the ProtocolDuring EMDR, when a traumatic memory is activated (Phase 3) and bilateral stimulation (BLS) is applied, something remarkable happens:The SN flags the traumatic memory as salient—“Pay attention. This matters.”The DMN pulls up self-referential meaning—“This means I’m unsafe/useless/etc.”The CEN is invited back online through dual attention tasks, helping the client hold both the memory and the present moment in awareness.This isn’t just a mechanical process. It’s a forced redistribution of cognitive resources that breaks the brain out of its trauma-locked loop.As Bridger explains:“It’s like unpacking an avalanche—slowly taking out the debris so the mountain can reorganize.”The goal isn’t just to desensitize distress. It’s to help the networks regain their natural flow—so that the body and mind no longer behave as if the trauma is still happening.The Role of Working Memory TheoryWorking Memory Theory suggests that when we overload the brain’s working memory—by recalling the traumatic memory while engaging in a second task like BLS—the vividness and emotional charge of the memory fade.This theory helps explain why EMDR works, but it’s not the whole story.Strength: Shows how “dual attention” can disrupt trauma loops.Limitation: Doesn’t account for why some clients feel worse after sessions or why deeper transformation requires relational safety.This is why Beyond Healing integrates working memory theory within a larger, network-based, relational perspective.Why Therapists Should Care About NeuroscienceSome may wonder: Why bother with all this neuroscience? Isn’t it enough to follow the EMDR protocol?Here’s why it matters: ✅ Understanding networks builds confidence in the method. ✅ It empowers therapists to adjust their interventions with intention. ✅ It helps clinicians see why attunement and resourcing aren’t optional—they’re essential to reintegration.As Savage reflects in the episode:“This shifts us from memorizing a protocol to creatively, ...
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    1 hr and 11 mins
  • Why Does EMDR Work? Exploring Working Memory, Bilateral Stimulation, and the Science of Change

    Why Does EMDR Work? Exploring Working Memory, Bilateral Stimulation, and the Science of Change
    Jun 5 2025
    EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) has transformed the way clinicians approach trauma. But what exactly makes it so effective? Is it the bilateral stimulation? The eight-phase protocol? Or is there something deeper at play in the brain?In this blog post, we unpack one of the leading theories behind EMDR’s effectiveness: working memory taxation. Drawing from neuroscience, clinical research, and therapist experience, we explore how EMDR works by engaging specific brain systems and redistributing attention and memory resources. This post is ideal for clinicians, students, and curious learners who want to understand the science behind EMDR in clear, accessible terms.What is Working Memory, and Why Does It Matter in Trauma Therapy?Working memory is your brain's ability to hold and manipulate information over short periods of time. It’s the mental workspace where you solve problems, remember a phone number long enough to dial it, or pay attention while taking notes.In the context of trauma, working memory becomes critical because:Traumatic memories often dominate attention.When the brain is flooded with fear or shame, it struggles to stay in the present.Engaging working memory during trauma recall may disrupt the brain’s typical response pattern.This is the heart of working memory theory in EMDR: if a client holds a traumatic image in mind while simultaneously completing a working memory task (like tracking a moving object), the emotional vividness of the memory is reduced."It’s not just distraction—it’s reconsolidation. You’re using one part of the brain to loosen the grip of another."Research supports this. Studies by Van den Hout, Engelhard, and others (2012) show that taxing working memory reduces the emotional intensity and vividness of traumatic memories.Understanding the Brain: From Modules to NetworksEarly neuroscience often focused on modular thinking:Fear = amygdalaMemory = hippocampusAttention = prefrontal cortexWhile useful, this model doesn’t explain why trauma affects everything at once.Enter network neuroscience, a more recent and comprehensive model. Instead of isolated parts, brain functions are distributed across large-scale systems called intrinsic connectivity networks. These networks regulate everything from thought and memory to emotion and attention.Among the most important are:Default Mode Network (DMN) – self-reflection, autobiographical memorySalience Network (SN) – threat detection, switching between networksCentral Executive Network (CEN) – working memory, decision-makingWhen trauma occurs, these networks lose synchrony. Clients may:Loop in shame (DMN)Feel hypervigilant or numb (SN)Struggle to think clearly (CEN)What EMDR Is Doing in the BrainDuring EMDR, when a distressing memory is activated:The Salience Network (SN) flags it as important.The Default Mode Network (DMN) brings up self-referential associations.The Central Executive Network (CEN) tries to stay present.Dual attention tasks, such as bilateral stimulation, tax the CEN, anchoring the client in the present moment. This reduces the cognitive resources available to the DMN, weakening the emotional grip of the memory. Meanwhile, the SN helps orchestrate the shift between past and present."The SN becomes the conductor, coordinating two orchestras: past (DMN) and present (CEN)."Memory Reconsolidation in EMDRNeuroscience shows that memories are not fixed. According to Nader et al. (2000), a memory becomes labile (changeable) when it is reactivated. If, during that reactivation, new information is introduced, the memory can be reconsolidated in a less distressing form.EMDR leverages this by:Activating the memory (DMN)Providing a new experience (CEN + therapeutic presence)Re-tagging the emotional salience (SN)It’s not that the memory disappears. It’s that the brain knows how to relate to it differently.Critiquing Working Memory Theory: What It Gets Right and What It MissesWhat It Gets Right:Working memory tasks disrupt trauma memory vividness.Bilateral stimulation engages attention and reduces fear.Dual-task interference is measurable and repeatable in lab settings.What It Misses:EMDR is not a mechanical task. Relationship matters.Trauma isn’t just about intensity—it’s about meaning.The SN requires emotional safety to flag experiences as worth integrating."The working memory load softens the emotional punch, but it’s the network reconnection—guided by safety and co-regulation—that allows transformation."Clinical Takeaways: How to Use This Understanding in PracticeWhen you slow down and attune to your client, you’re helping their Salience Network reclassify experience from threat to meaning.When you invite parts to speak, you’re engaging DMN + SN.When you use BLS while grounding, you’re co-activating CEN + SN.By working relationally with the client, you’re helping the brain do what it was always meant to do: integrate.Want More?Episode 2 of the series explores ...
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    57 mins
  • Human First: A Conversation with The EMDR Coach, Dana Carretta Stein

    Human First: A Conversation with The EMDR Coach, Dana Carretta Stein
    May 22 2025
    What If the Therapist Was the Most Powerful Intervention in EMDR?Reclaiming the Human Thread in Trauma TherapyIn the world of EMDR therapy, conversations about techniques, protocols, and procedures often dominate the training space. But what if something even more powerful has been quietly present all along? What if the most transformative tool in EMDR isn’t the protocol—it’s the presence of the therapist?In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we sat down with Dana Carretta Stein—EMDR therapist, consultant, and creator of @the_emdr_coach—to talk about something we believe is foundational but too often overlooked: the humanness of the therapist.What started as a conversation about social media quickly became a deep dive into identity, presence, and the profound responsibility we carry as healing professionals. Together, we explored the tension between objectivity and authenticity, protocol and personhood—and how returning to our full humanity may be the very thing that deepens healing for everyone in the room.The Therapist Is Not a Blank SlateWhy Authenticity Isn’t a LiabilityFrom the earliest days of graduate training, many of us were taught to strive for neutrality. Keep your personal life out of the room. Don’t display family photos. Don’t self-disclose. Don’t “do therapy on your friends.” While some of this advice is meant to protect boundaries, it also sends a subtler message: your full self does not belong here.Dana, a deeply relational therapist and group practice owner, pushes back on that message with both clarity and warmth. She shares openly about the exhaustion of compartmentalization and the healing power of being “unavoidably authentic” in the therapy room.“Clients don’t need a perfect therapist,” Dana reminds us. “They need a human one.”This doesn’t mean we flood the space with our stories or blur boundaries. It means we let ourselves be present—not as clinical instruments, but as nervous systems, as parents, as people with real emotions, histories, and insight.Intersubjectivity Is Powerful—And NecessaryRelational Healing Requires a Relational PresenceOne of the core themes of this episode is the reclaiming of intersubjectivity—the idea that therapy is not just something we do to a client, but something we co-create with them. The standard EMDR model often emphasizes staying out of the way, trusting the protocol, and avoiding contamination of the client’s process.But what happens when we over-apply that detachment? What do we lose when we forget that transformation often happens between us, not just within them?We explore this together by naming what we see in our own work:Therapists who dissociate behind the scriptClients who learn to “perform” EMDR without truly connectingSessions that feel technically correct but relationally sterileInstead, we offer a vision of EMDR that is alive with presence. One where therapist and client are both brave enough to be real.Countertransference Isn’t the Problem—Disconnection IsWhy Your “Stuff” Belongs in the Room (with Reflection)Dana names something many of us intuitively feel but rarely say: the therapist’s unresolved material will show up in the work. The question is not whether it appears, but whether we recognize it, reflect on it, and take care of it somewhere outside the session.In this episode, we talk about the difference between:Reflexive self-disclosure and intentional vulnerabilityHidden agendas and clean attunementTransference reenactments and relational repairBridger names this beautifully: “What brought us into this field is often the same strategy we re-enact during the work itself.” Without awareness, this strategy can hijack the process. But with reflection, it becomes a strength—a superpower, as Dana says.Human First, Then TherapistWhy Presence Is the Foundation of ConceptualizationWhen Dana trains therapists in her practice, she begins with one simple phrase:“Human first. Then be a therapist.”This isn't just good advice for preventing burnout. It’s a core principle of case conceptualization. The more connected we are to our own internal world, the more intuitively and compassionately we can understand our clients.From this lens, the therapist’s body isn’t a neutral container—it’s an instrument of resonance.The therapeutic relationship isn’t a backdrop—it’s the medium through which healing travels.This conversation reaffirms what many therapists long to hear:You are not too much. Your humanness is not in the way. It is the way.Want to Go Deeper?If this conversation sparked something in you—if you’ve ever felt unsure how to bring your full self into EMDR therapy, or if you’re craving a framework that honors both person and protocol—we’d love to invite you into further learning:The SIP TrainingSomatic Integration and Processing (SIP) is our signature approach to relational, neurodevelopmentally-informed EMDR therapy. It ...
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    1 hr and 6 mins
  • EMDR, Cultural Humility, and Doing Your Own Work: Conversation with Mark Nickerson

    EMDR, Cultural Humility, and Doing Your Own Work: Conversation with Mark Nickerson
    May 8 2025

    “To be a culturally competent therapist is to be a human first—curious, aware, humble, and willing to grow.”

    In this powerful episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Jen Savage sits down with EMDR therapist, author, and cultural competence advocate Mark Nickerson, LICSW for a rich and timely conversation about what it really means to bring cultural responsiveness into our clinical work.

    This episode invites clinicians to think beyond checkboxes and intake forms—and to reflect on how their personal stories, social identities, and cultural histories shape the therapy they provide. Together, Jen and Mark explore how EMDR can help process both internalized oppression and social bias, and how the work of healing requires an ongoing willingness to look inward.

    “Cultural humility isn’t an add-on—it’s at the heart of any real change.”

    — Mark Nickerson, LICSW

    Why This Conversation Matters

    Therapists often long to be affirming, inclusive, and aware—but aren’t sure where to begin. Mark’s insights offer both practical steps and deep philosophical grounding. His perspective is shaped by decades of clinical work, social advocacy, and a commitment to human rights.

    He shares stories from early workshops where EMDR was used to process two core themes:

    1. A memory of being excluded or discriminated against
    2. A memory of holding bias or participating in exclusion

    In both cases, EMDR offered clarity, healing, and increased self-awareness—making space for deeper empathy and greater readiness to grow.


    Featured Topics:

    • What it means to do your own cultural work as a therapist
    • How identity, privilege, and power dynamics shape the therapy process
    • Using EMDR to target internalized oppression and social bias
    • Legacy trauma, intergenerational pain, and cultural narratives
    • How cultural humility invites us into lifelong self-examination
    • Why EMDR is well-suited to address culturally based trauma—when practiced with awareness

    About the Book

    Mark is the editor and contributing author of the seminal book

    Cultural Competence and Healing Culturally Based Trauma with EMDR Therapy (2nd ed., 2023).

    Spanning more than 400 pages, the book includes seven chapters by Mark and 20 more by authors with diverse identities, backgrounds, and clinical expertise. It addresses racial trauma, immigration and asylum seeking, social class, systemic oppression, and cultural adaptations of EMDR around the world.

    Whether you read it cover-to-cover or use it as a chapter-by-chapter resource, it’s an essential tool for therapists seeking to deepen their work.

    📘 Learn more about the book and Mark’s work at: markinickerson.com


    Want to Go Even Deeper?

    If this conversation stirred something in you—if you’re beginning to ask how your own story shows up in the therapy room—consider exploring the Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP) framework.

    SIP isn’t a replacement for EMDR. It’s a lens that helps therapists explore the worldview they bring into their work. It asks:

    • Why do I respond this way in session?
    • What does safety mean to me?
    • What am I unconsciously avoiding?

    SIP helps therapists do their own work—by mapping how our nervous systems, identities, and histories shape our therapeutic presence.

    📥 Want to explore it for yourself?

    Comment “mirror” on our Instagram page or visit connectbeyondhealing.com and search “SIP” to receive a free PDF chapter on the SIP model.

    See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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    1 hr and 2 mins
  • Is EMDR Too Insular?: A Conversation with Derek Farrell

    Is EMDR Too Insular?: A Conversation with Derek Farrell
    Apr 10 2025
    What happens when a visionary academic, a few decades of lived EMDR experience, and a global perspective meet a pair of U.S.-based EMDR trainers hungry for evolution?You get a conversation that challenges everything we take for granted about training, research, and the future of trauma therapy.In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we had the immense honor of sitting down with Dr. Derek Farrell—clinical psychologist, international EMDR leader, Trauma Aid Europe president, and editor of the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of EMDR. His voice is rare in our community: one that spans the trenches of EMDR practice, the architecture of academic programs, and the politics of international research.And he’s not afraid to say what others only whisper.“EMDR is very, very good at talking to itself,” Farrell told us. “But it would be very useful to be more friendly with other organizations.”Farrell sees the echo chamber. He names the structural gaps. And he points toward the opportunities we’re missing if we don’t open up.The Missed Opportunities of a Siloed ModelSince his first training with Francine Shapiro in the 1990s, Farrell has witnessed the evolution of EMDR from fringe to globally recognized treatment. But he’s also watched how the field’s franchise-style model has limited its ability to join the larger scientific conversation.“If you look at the ISTSS annual conference, how many papers are based on EMDR? Very few,” he noted. “And that’s a missed opportunity, because they’re one of the major political players in informing health policy.”Farrell urges the EMDR community to step out of self-reinforcing training cycles and into more robust, interdisciplinary partnerships—particularly with academic institutions and trauma researchers in CBT and related fields.“We have to stop being so insular. If we don’t, we’ll lose space to something else. The future won’t be in our hands—it’ll move on.”The Case for Academic IntegrationFarrell isn’t calling for the abolition of professional trainings—but he’s asking us to see their limits. Especially in countries where trauma prevalence is high and mental health infrastructure is limited, the standard credentialing pipeline simply isn’t realistic—or ethical.“You can’t make decisions in first-world economies about how third-world health systems should deliver care,” he said, referencing his trauma capacity work in Iraq. “They don’t have 10 years to wait for an indigenous EMDR trainer.”In one particularly poignant story, Farrell described how a UK university removed EMDR from its trauma curriculum entirely because their two course leaders—both widely published psychologists—weren’t credentialed EMDR trainers. The credentialing system, he argued, had failed the field.“That would’ve been an amazing opportunity to bring EMDR into mainstream trauma psychology. And we missed it.”Credentialing Is Not the Enemy—But It Can’t Be the Only PathDespite his critiques, Farrell is no enemy of credentialing. In fact, he sees it as critical for clinician protection and client safety.“If a client is choosing between two EMDR therapists—one credentialed and one not—they will always choose the credentialed one,” he said. “And they should.”But he’s clear: our current model doesn’t serve the spectrum of learners, educators, and clients. We need both professional and academic pathways. We need to distinguish between basic attendance and demonstrated competence. And we need to stop pretending that a seven-day training is equivalent to a psychotherapy education.“The contradiction is we call it a basic training, but we also say EMDR is a powerful therapy,” he told us. “Those two things don’t go together.”What About the Protocol? Isn’t That Enough?In the trenches, EMDR therapists often cling to the eight-phase protocol as a kind of life raft. But Farrell challenged us to see it differently.“The protocol is highly forgiving,” he said. “We miss bits out, we forget the VOC or the negative cognition, and the client still processes. That’s the magic of it. But we need to teach people not just the steps—but why and how to break the rules wisely.”Farrell encourages trainers and educators to move beyond memorization and into meaning—especially when the bulk of clients are not single-incident trauma survivors.“We’re teaching to a model that doesn’t reflect the reality of most people’s caseloads,” he said. “It’s no wonder there’s burnout and drop-out after level one.”So… Where Do We Go From Here?Farrell’s parting thoughts were both sobering and deeply hopeful.“We need to get the AIP model into undergrad. Into graduate programs. Into social work and psychology and counseling degrees. Because when students understand that model, EMDR is no longer a leap. It’s a natural next step.”He’s also spearheading a massive academic effort to support that very ...
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    1 hr and 19 mins
  • What if EMDR Was a Truly Somatic Therapy?

    What if EMDR Was a Truly Somatic Therapy?
    Mar 27 2025
    What If EMDR Was a Fully Somatic Therapy?In the world of EMDR therapy, conversations about somatics are becoming more and more common. But what if somatics wasn’t just a helpful layer to add onto EMDR? What if it was the foundation? What if we could reimagine EMDR as a truly somatic therapy—one that centers the body as the primary source of healing, rather than just another variable to account for?In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, Melissa, Bridger, and Jen gathered to reflect on their first EMDR Basic Training as trainers through Beyond Healing Institute—and to introduce a new series that dares to ask big, paradigm-shifting questions about the nature of trauma and the future of EMDR.Launching Something New: The First Beyond Healing EMDR TrainingAfter two years of planning and waiting for approval, the team finally launched their EMDR Basic Training—and it exceeded expectations. What struck them most was how natural the experience felt. The structure of the training emphasized spaciousness, human connection, and honoring the therapist as a vital part of the therapeutic process. Participants left not just informed, but embodied—ready to bring the work into their practice with confidence and clarity.For Melissa, this experience prompted deeper questions about the nature of EMDR itself—questions that have been simmering for years: What would it mean to practice EMDR from a truly somatic orientation? What would change if we made the body—not the memory—the primary focus?Trauma as the Disallowance of Natural ExpressionOne of the core ideas introduced in this episode is a somatic definition of trauma:Trauma is a moment when the body is disallowed its natural response.Whether through physical restraint, anesthesia, shaming, fear, or relational danger, the body’s innate need to express gets halted. What remains is energy that no longer has a context—a charge without a story. That disoriented energy gets stored in the body and, over time, leads to patterns of dissociation, confusion, and eventually depression.From this lens, trauma work is about recontextualizing that energy—giving it back its story—and then addressing the fear (or phobia) that originally caused it to be repressed. Healing, then, becomes about both remembering and reclaiming what the body lost access to.Suppression, Repression, and Depression: A Somatic Venn DiagramThe team explored the difference between suppression and repression, noting that these terms are often used interchangeably but reflect very different processes. Suppression is a conscious decision to hold something back—functional, temporary, and often socially necessary. Repression, on the other hand, is unconscious and usually the result of overwhelming trauma.Chronic repression, over time, often leads to depression—what Melissa described as a loss of access to the body’s vital energy. This devitalization shows up as apathy, confusion, loss of identity, and disconnection from wants, needs, and affect. The work of trauma healing becomes a process of revitalization—not just regulation.Moving Beyond RegulationOne of the major themes of this episode is the critique of the current cultural obsession with “nervous system regulation.” While regulation is a helpful part of the process, it is far from the whole picture. Melissa invites us to ask:Why are we so afraid of activation? Why do we associate calmness with healing, and intensity with danger?From a somatic lens, regulation is not about minimizing activation—it’s about supporting the body in accurately responding to the environment. That means we need to move beyond the dichotomy of regulated = good and dysregulated = bad. Sometimes, yelling, shaking, crying, or expressing intense emotion is the most accurate and necessary response a body can have.Rewriting the Protocol: Why EMDR Isn’t Somatic (Yet)Despite its growing popularity, EMDR in its standard form is not a somatic therapy. As Melissa puts it bluntly:“The only thing somatic about the standard protocol is one question: ‘Where do you feel that in your body?’”Even the body scan at the end of Phase 6 is often used to check if the client is “done,” rather than to deeply listen to the body’s story. Somatics, in its truest form, isn’t about control or compliance. It’s about contact. Real, honest, present-moment contact with the body as it is—not as we want it to be.The team explored how preparation in somatically-focused EMDR would look radically different. Rather than beginning with calmness and containment, it might begin with something more raw and real:“Welcome to your body. How does it feel to be here? What sensations do you notice? Can you feel your aliveness?”Preparing the Body for HealingIn this series, the team will continue to explore how trauma healing changes when we lead with the body. Upcoming episodes will dive into:The concept of affect phobia—why we’re so afraid of feeling, and ...
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    52 mins
  • Beyond Protocol: EMDR, Case Conceptualization, and the Power of Shared Language

    Beyond Protocol: EMDR, Case Conceptualization, and the Power of Shared Language
    Mar 6 2025
    In the world of EMDR therapy, it's easy to get caught up in technique—perfecting protocols, refining scripts, and ensuring procedural accuracy. But what happens when we step beyond protocol and start seeing the therapeutic process as an intersubjective experience—one that includes not just our clients but ourselves as well?In a recent episode of Notice That: An EMDR Podcast, we had the opportunity to sit down with Jenniffer Weller-White, LCSW, and Nicole Deems, LMFT, both clinicians and EMDR consultants who have been immersed in the work of Somatic Integration and Processing (SIP) for several years. Their journey through EMDR, SIP, and case conceptualization offers a powerful insight into how these frameworks can revolutionize the way we think about therapy—not just for our clients, but for our own growth and development as therapists.Case Conceptualization: More Than Treatment PlanningOne of the core themes of this conversation was rethinking case conceptualization. Traditionally, case conceptualization has been viewed as a tool for treatment planning—a structured way to organize symptoms, identify target memories, and plan interventions. But Jenniffer and Nicole emphasize that it’s so much more than that.“Case conceptualization is not just about treatment planning—it’s about every facet of the therapeutic process, including our own professional development.”At its core, case conceptualization is about making meaning—understanding how a client’s strategies, symptoms, and relational patterns are expressions of their life experiences. SIP provides a language and framework for recognizing these patterns in a way that humanizes them rather than reducing them to clinical formulations.Instead of seeing symptoms as pathology, SIP invites us to view them as adaptive strategies—deeply ingrained responses that once served a purpose. When we shift from problem-solving mode to meaning-making mode, we create space for clients to understand themselves in a new and profoundly validating way.The Language of Strategy: Reframing “Symptoms”A major takeaway from this discussion was the importance of language in therapy. Words shape perception. The way we describe a client’s experiences directly impacts how they interpret themselves.Jenniffer and Nicole shared how SIP has changed the way they talk about “triggers” and “maladaptive behaviors”—terms that can sometimes feel pathologizing. Instead, they use the word “strategy.”“Being able to neutralize language around being ‘triggered’ and instead frame it as a strategy is incredibly softening for clients. It shifts the focus from ‘something is wrong with me’ to ‘this is how I learned to survive.’”This subtle shift can be transformative. When a client moves from feeling shame about their symptoms to seeing them as intelligent, adaptive responses to past experiences, they can begin to approach their healing with compassion instead of self-judgment.Even more powerful? When clients themselves adopt this language.“I love when clients start using the word ‘strategy’ themselves—when they say things like, ‘Oh, I think this is just my system’s strategy to keep me safe.’ That’s when you know a shift is happening.”The Intersubjective Space: Healing Through RelationshipA core principle of SIP is the intersubjective space—the relational field between therapist and client where healing occurs.In traditional EMDR, the therapist’s role is often viewed as directive: administering the protocol, tracking the client’s responses, and moving them through the phases of treatment. While this structure is necessary, Jenniffer and Nicole spoke to the depth that is added when we integrate the relational component.“At first, EMDR felt too prescriptive to me. When I found SIP, I realized it was giving language to what I was already doing—bringing in the human, relational, and nuanced aspects of therapy.”When we understand the intersubjective space, we become aware of what’s happening between us and our clients in real time—the subtle shifts, the unspoken communication, the moments of connection or disconnection. Instead of simply “delivering” EMDR, we learn to co-create the experience with our clients.This is especially important when working with complex trauma, where the wound itself is often relational. Healing doesn’t come from following a script—it comes from the experience of being truly seen and understood.“Disconfirming experiences happen in the intersubjective space. Clients don’t just hear new information—they feel something different in the relationship with us, and that’s what changes them.”Building Community Through Shared LanguageOne of the most exciting aspects of SIP isn’t just its impact on client work—it’s how it has helped build a professional community.Jennifer and Nicole shared how their shared language has transformed the way they collaborate—from peer supervision...
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    48 mins
  • Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle

    Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle
    Feb 14 2025
    Bridging EMDR and Somatic Experiencing: A Conversation with Amanda Johnson & Rachel CagleCurious about how EMDR and Somatic Experiencing can work together? In this episode of Notice That, we explore the integration of these two modalities, the challenges and rewards of blending them, and how they can enhance trauma therapy. Tune in to hear Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle share their insights and experiences with Jen.Listen to the Full Episode: Somatic Experiencing and EMDR: Interview with Amanda Johnson and Rachel Cagle Why Blend EMDR and Somatic Experiencing?Many trauma therapists are trained in both EMDR and SE but struggle with how to integrate them effectively. EMDR provides a structured, protocol-driven approach to trauma reprocessing, while SE is a more fluid, intuitive method focused on tracking bodily sensations and releasing stored survival energy. Despite their differences, these modalities share a common goal: helping clients process trauma in a way that feels safe and regulated for their nervous system.Our guests, Amanda Johnson, LCSW, and Rachel Cagle, LPC, share their journeys into both EMDR and SE and how they’ve learned to blend them in practice.💬 Amanda: “I had a profound personal experience with a therapist who integrated EMDR and somatic work. That moment changed everything for me—I realized there was so much more happening in my body than I had been aware of.”💬 Rachel: “Talk therapy alone felt like it was missing something. When I started receiving somatic therapy as a client, it shifted something internally for me. I knew I wanted to bring that into my work with clients.”Where EMDR and SE Complement Each OtherThroughout the episode, Amanda and Rachel highlight specific ways that SE can enhance EMDR, particularly for clients who struggle with embodiment.🔹 Pendulation and Titration: SE emphasizes moving between activation and regulation, mirroring EMDR’s use of dual attention and calm place resourcing. “In SE, we learn to gently introduce activation, pendulate back to safety, and slowly build the nervous system’s capacity for intensity,” Rachel explains.🔹 Tracking the Body’s Cues: EMDR often includes body scans, but SE provides a deeper framework for understanding bodily signals. Amanda describes how SE helps her notice micro-movements in clients—like subtle shifts in breath or posture—that offer valuable information for the healing process.🔹 Expanding Affect Tolerance Before Reprocessing: One of the biggest mistakes therapists make in EMDR is pushing into reprocessing before a client has the affect tolerance to stay with activation. SE teaches clinicians how to gradually increase that tolerance, making EMDR more effective. “If a system doesn’t yet know how to process and release activation, it’s too early for trauma processing,” Amanda explains.Challenges in IntegrationDespite their synergy, integrating these approaches can be tricky. Amanda shares a formative experience early in her training where she presented an EMDR case at a Peter Levine case consultation.💬 Amanda: “I had just finished my EMDR training and had worked with a client using a single-episode trauma approach. When I described this in the consultation, I felt like I had made a huge mistake—like EMDR wasn’t supposed to be used for this client’s complex trauma history. That moment really threw me. I actually put EMDR on the shelf for a while because I wasn’t sure how to reconcile the two approaches.”For Rachel, the challenge has been introducing SE concepts to long-term EMDR clients.💬 Rachel: “With newer clients, I can naturally integrate both approaches from the beginning, but with established clients, I sometimes have to introduce SE more explicitly. It can feel like I’m asking them to do something totally different, and that takes some adjusting.”Do Therapists Need Formal SE Training to Work Somatically?If you’re an EMDR therapist who wants to bring in more somatic awareness but isn’t sure if full SE training is the right path, Amanda and Rachel suggest exploring:✅ Polyvagal Theory: Learning about nervous system states can significantly enhance your EMDR work.✅ Shorter Somatic Trainings: Many organizations offer introductory somatic courses that are less intensive than full SE certification.✅ Personal Somatic Work: One of the best ways to integrate somatics into your practice is to experience it yourself. “If we’re asking our clients to engage with their bodies in this way, we should be doing that work, too,” Amanda emphasizes.Final Thoughts: An Ongoing IntegrationBlending EMDR and SE isn’t about choosing one over the other—it’s about allowing both to influence the way we show up with clients. As Amanda puts it:💬 “EMDR gave me the coloring book—the structure and framework—but SE taught me how to color outside the lines in a way that makes sense for each client.”For therapists who feel torn between structured and...
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    1 hr and 4 mins