Guest Details:

In this episode of Nellie Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Braided Mac welcome Todd Itami, Director of Artificial Intelligence and Discovery Solutions at Covington Law Firm. Todd is a seasoned attorney and a recognized leader in AI and legal technology, specializing in integrating cutting-edge AI solutions into legal practice.

Key Takeaways:

1. The Inevitable AI Revolution in Law – AI is no longer just about efficiency; it’s about creating new value. The way lawyers interact with data, analyze cases, and deliver insights will change fundamentally.
2. The Future of eDiscovery – Traditional document review processes are wildly inefficient. AI-driven indexing and retrieval will transform eDiscovery by making large-scale document review smarter and faster.
3. Adoption Challenges and Roadmap for AI in Law Firms – Firms must move beyond the hype and start integrating AI tools now, encouraging lawyers to experiment and develop real-world use cases.

Action Items:

• Lawyers should start using AI tools to understand their potential rather than waiting for "perfect" solutions.
• Firms must create a use-case registry to document and analyze the most effective AI applications in their practice.
• Legal professionals should invest in AI training, including short courses and hands-on practice with generative AI models.

Chapters with Timecodes:

[00:01:31] - Introduction of guest: Todd Itami, Covington Law Firm
[00:08:08] - Todd’s role in AI & eDiscovery solutions
[00:16:00] - How law firms are adopting AI and where the industry is headed
[00:26:22] - The inefficiencies of traditional eDiscovery and AI's role in solving them
[00:35:00] - The impact of better indexing and data retrieval on legal workflows
[00:44:30] - Practical roadmap for AI adoption in law firms
[00:57:20] - The importance of training lawyers in AI and technology
[01:05:00] - Why Todd believes this AI moment is different from past tech shifts
[01:20:40] - Final thoughts and the role of organizations like Nellie in AI education

Most Compelling Quote:

"I've yet to meet a lawyer who really digs into AI tools for 10 or 20 hours and then says, ‘Yeah, never mind.’ It’s just too valuable." – Todd Itami

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Hon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Tom Gricks, Managing Director of eDiscovery at OpenText, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR), the legal industry's resistance to AI-driven workflows, and how Generative AI is reshaping document review. With a unique background in chemical engineering and law, Tom shares insights into the early battles over predictive coding, the transition from TAR 1.0 to TAR 2.0, and the future of AI-powered legal technology.

1. The Intersection of Engineering & Law – Tom Gricks shared his unconventional journey from chemical engineering to law, highlighting how his analytical mindset shaped his approach to eDiscovery. He explained how engineers and lawyers think differently but ultimately solve complex problems using structured methodologies.
2. The Evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR) – Tom argued the first case in the U.S. advocating for TAR, overcoming resistance to predictive coding in litigation. He outlined how TAR evolved from 1.0 (seed set training) to 2.0 (continuous active learning - CAL), reducing document review costs and improving efficiency.
3. Generative AI’s Role in eDiscovery – Tom provided an insightful comparison between TAR and Generative AI, warning against overhyping AI’s potential while acknowledging its growing role in automating document review. He stressed the importance of validation, transparency in prompts, and integrating AI into existing workflows rather than replacing traditional review methods entirely.

✅ Understand Validation – If you’re using TAR or AI in eDiscovery, ensure robust validation measures to confirm accuracy and defensibility.
✅ Bridge the Knowledge Gap – Legal teams should collaborate with data scientists to understand machine learning models and optimize AI-assisted review.
✅ Prepare for the Future – AI-powered tools will continue to evolve, so firms must stay agile, incorporating AI alongside traditional methodologies rather than prematurely discarding proven tools.

⏱ 00:02 – Introduction & Guest Welcome (Tom Gricks)
⏱ 00:06 – Tom’s Engineering-to-Law Journey: A Non-Traditional Path
⏱ 00:14 – The Early Days of eDiscovery & Predictive Coding Resistance
⏱ 00:24 – The Landmark Case That Introduced TAR to Courts
⏱ 00:35 – TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0 – The Shift to Continuous Active Learning
⏱ 00:45 – Why Some Firms Still Resist TAR and What Needs to Change
⏱ 00:54 – Generative AI in eDiscovery: Is It the Next Big Thing or Overhyped?
⏱ 01:05 – The Future: AI + TAR for Maximum Efficiency

"Lawyers tend to be risk-averse, but what they don’t realize is that they got worse results before technology than they do with it. The challenge is not whether AI works—it’s whether we trust what we don’t understand." – Tom Gricks

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Tom Gricks: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-gricks-5259a71a
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

Our Social Media:

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Podcast Show Summary

Guest Details

Judge Andrew J. Peck, retired U.S. Magistrate Judge and Senior Counsel at DLA Piper, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of eDiscovery, predictive coding, and the legal industry's slow adoption of technology.

Key Takeaways

1. The Slow Adoption of TAR & AI – Despite landmark rulings endorsing predictive coding (TAR), the legal industry remains resistant to change, relying heavily on keyword searches instead of embracing newer, more efficient technologies.

2. Judicial Understanding & eDiscovery Challenges – Many judges are now more tech-savvy than the attorneys appearing before them, but the legal profession as a whole remains hesitant to incorporate advanced analytics, email threading, and AI-assisted review into their workflow.

3. The Future of Generative AI in eDiscovery – While AI holds immense promise, Judge Peck warns of potential "AI tax" concerns, where discovery disputes over prompts and validation could hinder adoption, much like early TAR battles.

Action Items

• Legal professionals must educate themselves on AI & eDiscovery tools – Judge Peck emphasizes that technology can enhance efficiency, but lawyers must invest time to understand its application in legal practice.
• Judges should facilitate tech adoption by encouraging efficiency over outdated methods – Courts should push back on inefficient discovery practices, leveraging cost-saving technology where appropriate.
• Law firms should proactively engage their IT teams and tech experts – Understanding the scope of data production (e.g., hyperlink documents, Slack messages, texts) before stipulating discovery agreements can prevent costly mistakes.

Chapters with Timecodes

📌 [00:00:02] – Introduction by hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack
📌 [00:01:32] – Welcome to Judge Andrew Peck
📌 [00:02:09] – Judge Peck’s history with the NeLI Conference
📌 [00:05:46] – The industry’s slow adoption of TAR and predictive coding
📌 [00:09:07] – Challenges with lawyer resistance to technology
📌 [00:15:15] – Expanding scope of eDiscovery: text messages, Slack, and hyperlinked documents
📌 [00:25:02] – The rise of generative AI in eDiscovery: promise & pitfalls
📌 [00:32:35] – The importance of validation and defensibility in AI-assisted review
📌 [00:37:04] – Future of AI in legal discovery and potential rule changes
📌 [00:42:05] – Advice for law students on embracing legal technology
📌 [00:44:50] – Closing remarks and upcoming Nellie Conference in 2025

Most Compelling Quote

"AI won’t replace lawyers, but lawyers who fail to embrace AI may find themselves replaced." – Judge Andrew J. Peck (Ret.)

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Hon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

Our Social Media:

• LinkedIn
• X (Twitter)
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• Facebook