Guest Details:

In this episode of Nellie Pod, hosts Daniel Gold and Braided Mac welcome Todd Itami, Director of Artificial Intelligence and Discovery Solutions at Covington Law Firm. Todd is a seasoned attorney and a recognized leader in AI and legal technology, specializing in integrating cutting-edge AI solutions into legal practice.

Key Takeaways:

1. The Inevitable AI Revolution in Law – AI is no longer just about efficiency; it’s about creating new value. The way lawyers interact with data, analyze cases, and deliver insights will change fundamentally.
2. The Future of eDiscovery – Traditional document review processes are wildly inefficient. AI-driven indexing and retrieval will transform eDiscovery by making large-scale document review smarter and faster.
3. Adoption Challenges and Roadmap for AI in Law Firms – Firms must move beyond the hype and start integrating AI tools now, encouraging lawyers to experiment and develop real-world use cases.

Action Items:

• Lawyers should start using AI tools to understand their potential rather than waiting for "perfect" solutions.
• Firms must create a use-case registry to document and analyze the most effective AI applications in their practice.
• Legal professionals should invest in AI training, including short courses and hands-on practice with generative AI models.

Chapters with Timecodes:

[00:01:31] - Introduction of guest: Todd Itami, Covington Law Firm
[00:08:08] - Todd’s role in AI & eDiscovery solutions
[00:16:00] - How law firms are adopting AI and where the industry is headed
[00:26:22] - The inefficiencies of traditional eDiscovery and AI's role in solving them
[00:35:00] - The impact of better indexing and data retrieval on legal workflows
[00:44:30] - Practical roadmap for AI adoption in law firms
[00:57:20] - The importance of training lawyers in AI and technology
[01:05:00] - Why Todd believes this AI moment is different from past tech shifts
[01:20:40] - Final thoughts and the role of organizations like Nellie in AI education

Most Compelling Quote:

"I've yet to meet a lawyer who really digs into AI tools for 10 or 20 hours and then says, ‘Yeah, never mind.’ It’s just too valuable." – Todd Itami

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Hon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Tom Gricks, Managing Director of eDiscovery at OpenText, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR), the legal industry's resistance to AI-driven workflows, and how Generative AI is reshaping document review. With a unique background in chemical engineering and law, Tom shares insights into the early battles over predictive coding, the transition from TAR 1.0 to TAR 2.0, and the future of AI-powered legal technology.

1. The Intersection of Engineering & Law – Tom Gricks shared his unconventional journey from chemical engineering to law, highlighting how his analytical mindset shaped his approach to eDiscovery. He explained how engineers and lawyers think differently but ultimately solve complex problems using structured methodologies.
2. The Evolution of Technology-Assisted Review (TAR) – Tom argued the first case in the U.S. advocating for TAR, overcoming resistance to predictive coding in litigation. He outlined how TAR evolved from 1.0 (seed set training) to 2.0 (continuous active learning - CAL), reducing document review costs and improving efficiency.
3. Generative AI’s Role in eDiscovery – Tom provided an insightful comparison between TAR and Generative AI, warning against overhyping AI’s potential while acknowledging its growing role in automating document review. He stressed the importance of validation, transparency in prompts, and integrating AI into existing workflows rather than replacing traditional review methods entirely.

✅ Understand Validation – If you’re using TAR or AI in eDiscovery, ensure robust validation measures to confirm accuracy and defensibility.
✅ Bridge the Knowledge Gap – Legal teams should collaborate with data scientists to understand machine learning models and optimize AI-assisted review.
✅ Prepare for the Future – AI-powered tools will continue to evolve, so firms must stay agile, incorporating AI alongside traditional methodologies rather than prematurely discarding proven tools.

⏱ 00:02 – Introduction & Guest Welcome (Tom Gricks)
⏱ 00:06 – Tom’s Engineering-to-Law Journey: A Non-Traditional Path
⏱ 00:14 – The Early Days of eDiscovery & Predictive Coding Resistance
⏱ 00:24 – The Landmark Case That Introduced TAR to Courts
⏱ 00:35 – TAR 1.0 vs. TAR 2.0 – The Shift to Continuous Active Learning
⏱ 00:45 – Why Some Firms Still Resist TAR and What Needs to Change
⏱ 00:54 – Generative AI in eDiscovery: Is It the Next Big Thing or Overhyped?
⏱ 01:05 – The Future: AI + TAR for Maximum Efficiency

"Lawyers tend to be risk-averse, but what they don’t realize is that they got worse results before technology than they do with it. The challenge is not whether AI works—it’s whether we trust what we don’t understand." – Tom Gricks

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Tom Gricks: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-gricks-5259a71a
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Podcast Show Summary

Guest Details

Judge Andrew J. Peck, retired U.S. Magistrate Judge and Senior Counsel at DLA Piper, joins the podcast to discuss the evolution of eDiscovery, predictive coding, and the legal industry's slow adoption of technology.

Key Takeaways

1. The Slow Adoption of TAR & AI – Despite landmark rulings endorsing predictive coding (TAR), the legal industry remains resistant to change, relying heavily on keyword searches instead of embracing newer, more efficient technologies.

2. Judicial Understanding & eDiscovery Challenges – Many judges are now more tech-savvy than the attorneys appearing before them, but the legal profession as a whole remains hesitant to incorporate advanced analytics, email threading, and AI-assisted review into their workflow.

3. The Future of Generative AI in eDiscovery – While AI holds immense promise, Judge Peck warns of potential "AI tax" concerns, where discovery disputes over prompts and validation could hinder adoption, much like early TAR battles.

Action Items

• Legal professionals must educate themselves on AI & eDiscovery tools – Judge Peck emphasizes that technology can enhance efficiency, but lawyers must invest time to understand its application in legal practice.
• Judges should facilitate tech adoption by encouraging efficiency over outdated methods – Courts should push back on inefficient discovery practices, leveraging cost-saving technology where appropriate.
• Law firms should proactively engage their IT teams and tech experts – Understanding the scope of data production (e.g., hyperlink documents, Slack messages, texts) before stipulating discovery agreements can prevent costly mistakes.

Chapters with Timecodes

📌 [00:00:02] – Introduction by hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack
📌 [00:01:32] – Welcome to Judge Andrew Peck
📌 [00:02:09] – Judge Peck’s history with the NeLI Conference
📌 [00:05:46] – The industry’s slow adoption of TAR and predictive coding
📌 [00:09:07] – Challenges with lawyer resistance to technology
📌 [00:15:15] – Expanding scope of eDiscovery: text messages, Slack, and hyperlinked documents
📌 [00:25:02] – The rise of generative AI in eDiscovery: promise & pitfalls
📌 [00:32:35] – The importance of validation and defensibility in AI-assisted review
📌 [00:37:04] – Future of AI in legal discovery and potential rule changes
📌 [00:42:05] – Advice for law students on embracing legal technology
📌 [00:44:50] – Closing remarks and upcoming Nellie Conference in 2025

Most Compelling Quote

"AI won’t replace lawyers, but lawyers who fail to embrace AI may find themselves replaced." – Judge Andrew J. Peck (Ret.)

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Hon. Andrew J. Peck (Ret.): https://www.dlapiper.com/en-us/people/p/peck-andrew-j
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Podcast Show Summary

1. Guest Details:
   Guest: Paul McVoy, Shareholder at Repario Data.

2. Key Takeaways:

   • Evolution in e-Discovery: Paul shares how the industry evolved from paper-based processes to advanced technology, emphasizing how AI assists in document summarization and analysis.
   • Ethical & Validation Standards in AI: Paul discusses the importance of transparency and validation in using AI for legal discovery, asserting that all tools should meet high standards to ensure reliability.
   • Sedona Conference's Role: Paul highlights his role in shaping e-discovery frameworks, with an emphasis on open dialogue and cooperation across legal perspectives.

3. Action Items:

   • Implement rigorous validation steps when using AI in legal processes to ensure reliable outputs.
   • Encourage open, transparent communication between parties to resolve discovery disputes more efficiently.
   • Engage in continuous learning and adaptation as e-discovery technology evolves.

4. Chapters with Timecodes:

   • [00:01:00] – Introduction of Paul McVoy and his journey in the e-discovery field.
   • [00:10:45] – Evolution from paper-based discovery to AI-powered solutions.
   • [00:21:30] – Differences between defense and plaintiff perspectives in e-discovery.
   • [00:32:15] – Ethical considerations and importance of AI validation.
   • [00:45:20] – The Sedona Conference's role and contributions to legal discovery.
   • [00:55:10] – Repario Data and the significance of open collaboration in legal tech.
   • [01:05:00] – Final thoughts and contact details for Paul McVoy.

5. Most Compelling Quote:
   "If you can show me that you validated whatever process you're using, you could have kindergartners decide what you want to produce; validation makes all the difference."

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Paul McVoy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-h-mcvoy-55a6424
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Guest Details
Mary Cooper, Vice President, Account Management at UnitedLex.

Key Takeaways

1. Mary highlighted the importance of adaptability and resilience in career development.
2. She emphasized the growing role of technology and legal tech in reshaping the legal industry.
3. Leadership in legal account management requires a deep understanding of client needs and a strategic approach to problem-solving.

Action Items

1. Invest in learning new technologies related to legal services.
2. Focus on building strong client relationships by understanding their unique challenges.
3. Continuously adapt to the changing demands of the legal industry to stay ahead.

Chapters with Timecodes

• 00:00:00: Introduction and Mary's Career Background
• 00:05:30: Challenges in the Legal Industry During the 2008 Recession
• 00:10:45: Transition to Legal Account Management
• 00:20:10: The Role of Technology in Modern Legal Services
• 00:30:30: Leadership and Client Relationships
• 00:40:15: Advice for Aspiring Legal Professionals

Most Compelling Quote

"I feel like eDiscovery is still one of those niche areas where when people ask what I do, I almost have to ask, 'Do you have 20 minutes?' It's such a cool, dynamic field that constantly evolves with new challenges and opportunities."

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Mary Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-cooper-b5985918
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Podcast Show Summary:

Guest Details:
Steve Davis, Vice President for Forensics and Education, Purpose Legal.

Key Takeaways:
1. Steve shared his journey from a federal investigator to leading forensics, emphasizing how investigations have evolved with digital tools.
2. The importance of understanding where data resides (residency) and ensuring that redundant backups exist to prevent data loss during investigations.
3. Steve discussed how the growing role of AI in legal tech and eDiscovery is evolving, but he remains cautious about AI's current capabilities in forensics.

Action Items:
1. When handling eDiscovery, prioritize identifying the end goal of the investigation before diving into the data.
2. Ask detailed questions about the devices and platforms involved to ensure accurate data collection, especially with mobile devices and third-party apps.
3. Ensure continuous education for your team on the latest technological advancements and forensic techniques to stay ahead in the field.

Chapters with Timecodes:
- [00:00] Introduction: Hosts Daniel Gold and Brandon Mack introduce the show.
- [02:30] Guest Introduction: Steve Davis of Purpose Legal.
- [04:00] Background: Steve's journey from federal investigator to forensics expert.
- [10:30] Forensics in eDiscovery: Insights into data residency and redundancy.
- [18:45] AI and Forensics: Skepticism and potential future roles for AI in legal tech.
- [26:15] Corporate Data Handling: Common pitfalls and lessons for organizations.
- [35:50] Advice for Aspiring Forensics Professionals.
- [42:00] Conclusion: Closing thoughts and where to find Purpose Legal.

Most Compelling Quote:
"Humans are really average—we make mistakes all the time. But in forensics, solving problems requires more than just technical expertise; it’s about asking the right questions and understanding the end goal of the investigation."

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Steve Davis: https://www.purposelegal.io/leadership/steve-davis
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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Guest Details:

Leah Bays, e-Discovery Attorney at Robbins Geller Rudman & Dowd LLP, a plaintiff’s firm in San Diego that focuses on securities class actions, antitrust, and consumer fraud cases.

Key Takeaways:

1. Career Journey and Passion for Plaintiffs’ Work: Leah’s transition from the defense bar to the plaintiff’s side was driven by her desire to protect and advocate for those with less power, particularly against large corporations. Her work in e-discovery at Robbins Geller allows her to fight for justice, leveraging technology to find critical facts that shape her cases.

2. The Role of Process in e-Discovery: Leah emphasizes the importance of setting up robust e-discovery processes, including ESI protocols, to avoid disputes and ensure that discovery is handled efficiently and fairly. She believes in clear communication and the necessity of both sides understanding and respecting the process.

3. Challenges in the Plaintiff’s Bar: Unlike the defense side, plaintiffs rely entirely on the information provided by their opponents, often leading to a contentious and obstructive discovery process. Leah discusses the strategic advantages and unique challenges of working on the plaintiff’s side, including the need for thorough analysis and quick evaluation of received documents.

Action Items:

1. Develop Clear ESI Protocols: Attorneys should establish clear and detailed ESI protocols early in the discovery process to minimize disputes and streamline information exchange.

2. Foster Open Communication: Legal teams should focus on transparent and collaborative communication, explaining the rationale behind discovery requests to facilitate a more efficient and less adversarial process.

3. Invest in e-Discovery Education: Legal professionals, especially those in the plaintiff’s bar, should continue to enhance their knowledge and skills in e-discovery to effectively manage and utilize technology in their cases.

Chapters with Timecodes:

• 0:00 – 5:15: Introduction and guest background.
• 5:16 – 15:30: Leah’s career path from defense to plaintiff’s bar.
• 15:31 – 25:00: The importance of process in e-discovery and setting up ESI protocols.
• 25:01 – 35:00: Challenges and strategic advantages in plaintiff-side e-discovery.
• 35:01 – 45:00: Collaboration
• 45:01 – 50:00: Leah’s involvement with the National eDiscovery Leadership Institute (NeLI) and her perspectives on education in the legal field.

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
  
• Lea Bays: https://www.rgrdlaw.com/attorneys-Lea-Malani-Bays.html - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-malani-bays-a274a8b
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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The latest episode of NeLI Pod is here! On this episode, Daniel and Brandon sit down with Tessa Jacob, partner at Husch Blackwell in Kansas City. Tessa leads the firm's industry-leading eDiscovery Solutions team and has multiple awards and accomplishments in the field, including an appointment to a three-year term on the Sedona Conference's Working Group 1 Steering Committee. Listen to Tessa's insights on the present and future of e-discovery and her practical tips for attorneys on how to effectively and efficiently manage an e-discovery process. No matter your experience with e-discovery, you will find Tessa's remarks informative and inspiring!

Resources:

• Visit the NeLI's website at: www.ediscoveryleadership.org
• Visit UMKC School of Law: law.umkc.edu
• Tesa Jacos: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tessajacob - https://www.huschblackwell.com/professionals/tessa-jacob
  
• Daniel Gold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielegold
• Brandon Mack: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmack

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