Why do men still benefit from higher pay, status, and power at work? What is the ideological and cultural underpinning that sustains the gendered division of labour? What are the harmful effects of workplace inequality on poverty, health, family life and women’s status? These are some of the key issues that Professor Cordelia Fine addresses in her witty and insightful new book ‘Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work’, which is listed as one of the non-fiction books to read this year by the UK Financial Times.

In our discussion, Cordelia draws on a wealth of evidence to explain how ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ operates, and how progress in dismantling unequal gender arrangements is stymied by two false visions: the ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI)’ approach, and the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective. Instead, she argues for a set of commonsense reforms which would benefit everyone. These include reorientating societies and workplaces around the assumption that most workers will have caring responsibilities; setting aside definitions of job ‘fit’ and success that exclude women and other marginalised groups; and addressing how the gender system is embedded in childhood.

We also explore some of the themes from her earlier book, Testosterone Rex, which won the Royal Society Science Book Prize. The book challenges the powerful myth that men and women have evolved fundamentally different natures, and that testosterone is responsible for ‘hard-wiring’ male brains to, for example, take risks, compete, and be violent. We conclude by discussing her motivations and influences as a writer, and the role of humour in her work.

Cordelia is Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne. She was awarded the prestigious 2018 Edinburgh Medal for her work challenging gender bias in science, and was recently named as a living legend by The Australian newspaper.

• Buy the book: https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/patriarchy-inc/
• Cordelia’s website: https://www.cordelia-fine.com
• Her University of Melbourne profile: https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/126041-cordelia-fine
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cordelia-fine-240773250/

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Why Cordelia wanted to write ‘Patriarchy Inc.’
• Why she takes issue with the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective
• Why the ‘DEI’ approach is also insufficient
• What her ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ approach adds
• How we can foster genuine equality in the workplace and society
• Break
• ‘Testosterone Rex’ and why men’s violence can’t be reduced to biology
• The use of humour in writing
• What led Cordelia into this research
• Conclusion (The nuances of DEI, Progress being non-linear, The role of trade unions, Capitalism and fatherhood, Valuing care)

Discussions about masculinity and violence against women have exploded into the spotlight, not least because of the widely-watched Netflix drama ‘Adolescence’. More and more men are asking: Why is ending this violence an issue for me? What can I do to be part of the solution? How can I overcome the barriers holding me back from taking action, such as feelings of defensiveness? These are some of the pressing questions leading anti-violence educator and scholar-activist Dr Jackson Katz addresses in his timely new book, 'Every Man: Why Violence Against Women is a Men’s Issue, and How You Can Make a Difference'.

In this episode, Jackson sets out the case for men’s involvement, and essential tools to help us contribute to preventing violence against women: from how to respond when a friend or colleague expresses misogynistic views, to changing the culture among our peers, to developing positive leadership among men on this issue.

We also discuss ‘Adolescence’ and its impact on, and implications for, parents, teachers, police officers and other key figures and institutions in young men’s (and women’s) lives.

We conclude by revisiting the political situation in the US, and how men are responding to the backward-looking narratives coming from figures like President Trump and Vice-President JD Vance about what ‘real men’ should be like.

Jackson is an American educator, speaker and writer internationally renowned for his groundbreaking work on issues of gender, race, and violence. His TEDx Talk 'Violence against women - it's a men's issue' has been watched 5.5 million+ times. He co-founded the pioneering gender violence prevention programme, Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP), which was the first large-scale prevention initiative in sports culture and all branches of the US military, and has been rolled out in schools across the US and parts of the UK.

Jackson’s book ‘Every Man’ is now available in the UK through Penguin, and will be published in the US by Bloomsbury in Sept 2025: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/every-man-9780241672662

• Find out more about Jackson’s work: https://www.jacksonkatz.com
• His writing for Ms Magazine: https://msmagazine.com/author/jkatz/
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-katz-ph-d-b7785b3/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jacksontkatz
• Watch his TEDx Talk, ‘Violence against women – It’s a men's issue’: https://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8

Episode timeline:

• Introduction
• Jackson’s views on ‘Adolescence’ and its impact (02:26-06:53)
• Showing the series in schools (06:53-10:11)
• Why Jackson wrote ‘Every Man’, and the difficulties of getting a book on this topic published (10:11-14:52)
• Why men might respond defensively, and how to move past that (14:52-20:52)
• The positive impacts of feminism on Jackson’s own life (20:52-27:29)
• Break
• The bystander approach and what it looks in practice (27:36-35:26)
• Its use in settings such as the military, and a different kind of leadership (35:26-43:52)
• Masculinity in the Trump 2.0 presidency, and signs of resistance (43:52-53:47)
• Why men need to face our fears of being ‘unmanned’ (53:47-56:54)
• Conclusion [The lessons of...

Tarang Chawla knows firsthand the devastating impacts of men’s violence, and the ripple effects it sends through families and communities – including on other boys and men. This is what led him to set up Not One More Niki, in memory of his younger sister Nikita who was murdered by her partner in 2015. Tarang is one of Australia’s most well-known and outspoken male advocates against gender-based violence. He talks to us about where he thinks Australian society needs to go from here in its efforts to end men’s violence against women, after a year in which a series of terrible murders brought this onto the agenda in a way not seen before.

We also discuss the position of gender equality and masculinity in the upcoming Australian federal election, including on issues such as ‘law and order’; coming to terms with racism and colonialism in Australia and the UK; and why understanding boys’ and men’s experiences of race and class can help us to reach out to them more meaningfully.

Tarang is an award-winning speaker, writer, advocate, and recovering lawyer. Among other things, he is a Commissioner at the Victorian Multicultural Commission, and a sessional academic at Monash University and the University of Melbourne. He also wrote, produced and hosted the first two series of the acclaimed podcast There's No Place Like Home.

• Tarang’s website: https://tarangchawla.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tarangchawla
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tarangchawla/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tarangchawlaonline
• Not One More Niki: https://www.instagram.com/notonemoreniki
• There’s No Place Like Home: https://www.futurewomen.com/theresnoplacelikehome/

Episode timeline

• Intro and acknowledgement of country
• Tarang’s journey into working to end men’s violence against women (03:17-06:28)
• Media portrayals of men who use violence (06:28-10:49)
• Talking about the ripple effects of men’s violence (10:49-14:04)
• The obstacles of masculine expectations (14:04-16:15)
• Men’s experiences of child sexual abuse (16:15-21:30)
• Being a spokesperson on these issues as a man (21:30-27:42)
• Break
• The impact of recent high-profile murders of Australian women (27:53-32:17)
• Debates about prevention work in Australia (32:17-36:35)
• Masculinity in the upcoming Australian election (36:35-39:09)
• Discourses about being ‘tough on crime’ (39:09-43:00)
• The pushback against equity and diversity initiatives (43:00-46:06)
• Racism in Australia (46:06-49:12)
• Understanding men and boys’ own experiences of marginalisation (49:12-54:43)
• Conclusion [Addressing sexism and racism simultaneously; Punitive responses to crime; Coming to the terms with British colonialism] (56:06-01:02:09)

More info

• “Earlier this month, it was announced that former AFL player Ben Cousins will join the Seven Network’s commentary team” https://www.smh.com.au/national/ben-cousins-new-tv-job-is-offensive-to-women-20250314-p5ljni.html
• “Locking up young...

The backlash against gender equality, or what its advocates describe with terms such as 'gender ideology' and 'wokeism', is reaching an ever-rising crescendo in Europe and countries across the globe. It poses a major threat to the hard-won achievements of the feminist movement. But what are the forces pushing the 'anti-gender movement' – and how should we respond to it? How is it manifesting itself differently in different countries, and how are politicians exploiting it? How is it seeking to antagonise men's insecurities, whilst offering few solutions to the problems they face? And what can organisations working with boys and men, and each of us as individuals, do in this critical moment? Expert Aleks Dimitrijevic provides us with vital insights.

Aleks is the co-founder and president of Men Against Violence in Malta, and a member of the Steering Committee of MenEngage Europe. He talks to us about how Malta was until recently the only country in the EU to completely outlaw abortion, how activists are continuing to struggle to lift the draconian restrictions against it, and the personal challenges he and his family have faced for campaigning in this area.

• Men Against Violence: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100068193336893
• Men 4 Dem project: https://www.men4dem.eu/
• MenEngage Europe: https://menengage.org/region/europe/

Thank you to Dom Stichbury and Chaps Choir for our new podcast music, with their song 'Now is time' https://www.facebook.com/ChapsChoir/

Episode timeline

• Introduction
• Gender (in)equality in Malta (02:12-05:17)
• The struggle to lift Malta’s abortion ban (05:17-08:01)
• Religious obstacles (08:01-10:39)
• Personal challenges Aleks and his family have faced (10:39-15:04)
• What is backlash? (15:04-17:05)
• Key issues for the 'anti-gender' movement (17:05-20:17)
• Resistance to preventing violence against women (20:17-26:13)
• The weaponisation of men’s issues (26:13-29:08)
• The 'men’s rights' movement (29:08-38:15)
• Break
• Right-wing populism and the mainstreaming of the 'anti-gender' movement (38:18-44:53)
• What people working with boys and men can do about it (44:53-48:27)
• Who is funding the backlash (48:27-51:36)
• Communicating in a language men and boys understand (51:36-55:47)
• Conclusion [Connections with climate denial; Struggles on the left; Parallels with the 1930s; Majority opinion; Building the next generation of activists] (55:47-01:02:24)

More info

• ‘‘Women are treated like walking incubators’: Malta’s fight for abortion’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/19/the-fight-for-abortion-in-malta
• ‘Malta to allow abortion but only when woman’s life is at risk’ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/28/malta-to-allow-abortion-but-only-when-womans-life-is-at-risk
• ILGA – “For the seventh year in a row, Malta continues to occupy the number one spot on the Rainbow Europe Map, with a score of 92%”

Masculinity is playing a significant yet under-discussed role in harms against animals and the environment. From hunting, to meat-eating, to driving fast cars, to burning fossil fuels, ‘man’s’ domination of nature is closely connected to gender inequality and masculine norms. In this 50th episode special, we discuss with Dr Cassie Pedersen why we urgently need to break down stereotypes suggesting that it is ‘feminine’ to care for nature, and help boys and men to embrace our interdependence with the world around us. We ask: Do environmental and animal activism challenge gender norms? What can each of us do in our own everyday lives? And how is ecofeminism relevant to men and boys? This is based on a new paper by Cassie and Stephen in the Journal of Criminology, ‘From men's violence to an ethic of care: Ecofeminist contributions to green criminology’.

Then, in part two, with Cassie’s help, we review the first 50 episodes of Now and Men. What have been our highlights so far? What directions should the podcast take in the future? And how do we face up to the increasingly authoritarian and destructive times we are living in? Join us in reflecting on the personal and political issues the podcast has explored over the last 3+ years, and what it has taught us about masculinity and allyship today.

Dr Cassie Pedersen is a Lecturer in Criminology and Criminal Justice at Federation University (Australia). Her background is in philosophy, with her PhD being on the theory of trauma, and her current work focuses predominantly on green criminology and harms against non-human animals.

• Read the paper: https://doi.org/10.1177/26338076241293145
• A recent piece by Stephen and Cassie, ‘It’s time to recognise the role masculinity is playing in the climate crisis’: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/its-time-to-recognise-the-role-masculinity-is-playing-in-the-climate-crisis
• Cassie’s profile: https://federation.edu.au/institutes-and-schools/ieac/staff-profiles/staf-profiles/cassie-pedersen
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cassie-pedersen-a30406153/

Episode timeline

• Introduction
• Men’s violence and environmental destruction (01:46-05:01)
• Green criminology and ecofeminism explained (05:01-07:28)
• The relationship between masculinity and violence against animals (07:28-10:47)
• Why an ethic of care offers an alternative (10:47-14:16)
• The impact of ecofeminism on Cassie and Stephen (14:16-19:51)
• Broadening what we mean by activism (19:51-25:19)
• The gendered dynamics of environmentalism (25:19-31:52)
• Break
• Standout episodes of Now and Men (31:57-36:56)
• The most significant issues we have and should cover (36:56-44:28)
• Bizarre and unusual podcast experiences (44:28-48:40)
• Gender, podcasting, and allyship (48:40-52:26)
• Episodes we’ve particularly enjoyed (52:26-54:07)
• What we’ve learned (54:07-56:51)
• Inspiring figures of 2024, and messages to take away (56:51-01:02:59)
• End

More info

• Petra Kelly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra_Kelly
• Carol Adams:

Why have male voice community choirs become more popular in the UK and beyond in recent years? How are they playing with norms of masculinity? Why is it that choirs often struggle to recruit men? What impact can they have on men’s lives and wellbeing? How are they helping men to connect and find community? And can they help us to build gender equality? In our Christmas Special for 2024, we explore these issues and more with Dom Stichbury.

Dom is a choir director, singer, songwriter, arranger, and group singing advocate. He’s the founder and artistic director of London-based groups Chaps Choir and Bellow Fellows, one half of vocal duo Ben and Dom (who do shows and run workshops around the UK), and a member of Oaken (a quartet of singers and choir leaders). He also performs with the Australian-based Spooky Men's Chorale.

The episode features recordings of three Chaps Choir’s performances:

• ‘Alilo’: https://soundcloud.com/chapschoir/sets/chaps-choir-live-union-chapel
• ‘Now is time’: https://open.spotify.com/track/3eVsnZrmVwM0asAJOxwCub
• ‘Drop of shanty’: https://open.spotify.com/track/0GB0HIzocneuONyhxehdIw?si=c0fb1d6bc2bd4344

Find out more about Dom’s work:

• http://www.dominicstichbury.com
• http://www.chapschoir.com
• https://www.bellowfellows.com
• https://www.benanddom.com
• https://www.oakenharmony.com
• https://spookymen.com

Episode timeline:

• ‘Alilo’ + Intro (00:00-02:27)
• The story of Chaps Choir and Bellow Fellows (02:27-04:32)
• The wider phenomena of male voice community choirs (04:32-06:01)
• International examples and subverting masculinity (06:01-07:24)
• Recruiting men (07:24-09:52)
• How the groups have shifted (09:52-11:54)
• The benefits of being part of a choir (11:54-16:25)
• Becoming more attuned with our bodies (16:25-18:00)
• Differences between mixed and men’s groups (18:00-20:04)
• Making groups inclusive (20:04-22:53)
• Encouraging people to sing together in settings like prisons (22:53-25:13)
• Why men are less likely to join choirs (25:13-29:00)
• Football chanting (29:00-31:14)
• Expressing emotion and vulnerability (31:14-35:52)
• ‘Now is time’ (32:34-36:52)
• The potential for choirs to promote change (36:52-39:42)
• Which groups of men (don’t) take part (39:42-44:25)
• Bringing a diverse group together (44:25-46:15)
• Forging friendships and community (46:15-48:15)
• Singing during Covid-19 (48:15-50:39)
• How Dom started singing (50:39-53:40)
• ‘Drop of shanty’ (53:17-55:05)
• Conclusion (54:32-01:01:25)

More info:

• The Best Sing Since Sliced Bread: https://www.bestsingsince.co.uk
• Huutajat:

What do we know about men’s friendships, and why have their social networks declined in the past 30 years? Why do so many find it hard to cultivate emotionally supportive friendships with each other? Why is it that men are more at risk of loneliness and social isolation than women? What are the impacts of this, both for men themselves and the women they are close to? And what can we do about it?

In this episode, Dr Angelica Ferrara discusses these issues and more, drawing upon her recent article (with Dylan Vergara) ‘Theorizing mankeeping: The male friendship recession and women’s associated labour as a structural component of gender inequality’. The authors argue that fewer close relationships between men may cause some to rely heavily on relationships with women, especially romantic relationships, for emotional support. This may increase the emotion work women do to support men, through a phenomenon Angelica and Dylan label as ‘mankeeping’ - which can in turn contribute to gender inequity.

Angelica is a postdoctoral scholar at Stanford University’s Clayman Institute for Gender Research, and a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics. She is trained as a developmental and social psychologist, and her work seeks to understand how gender ideologies shape behaviour and relationships. She’s currently working on a book called ‘Men Without Men’, about boys’ and men’s friendships throughout history and across cultures.

• Angelica’s profile: https://gender.stanford.edu/people/angelica-puzio-ferrara
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelica-puzio-ferrara-phd-3231b6211/
• Twitter: https://x.com/angeliferrara
• Read the paper: https://doi.org/10.1037/men0000494
• On the media coverage it has received: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/angelica-puzio-ferrara-phd-3231b6211_mankeeping-slides-activity-7265003061960445952-U6l7/

Episode timeline

• Introduction
• The male friendship recession (02:32-04:39)
• Differences among men (04:39-07:36)
• Why friendships are so important (07:36-10:33)
• The impact of masculine norms on men’s friendships (10:33-14:03)
• Changes with ageing and retirement (14:03-19:18)
• Why men’s social settings sometimes don’t help (19:18-21:18)
• How mankeeping works (21:18-25:16)
• Its impacts on women (25:16-27:30)
• Why boys have just as much capacity for relationships (27:30-32:08)
• Break
• How society needs to change (32:12-37:06)
• Creating spaces for men to connect (37:06-39:56)
• Men on their own (39:56-41:29)
• What individual men can do (41:29-46:03)
• Why we need to support others (46:03-48:29)
• The significance of touch (48:29-50:38)
• What led Angelica to this research (50:38-54:25)
• Conclusion [Personal struggles with conforming to masculine norms and building close friendships with men; The need to reach out; Fears of rejection; Totalitarianism and a sense of abandonment; Far-right exploitation of men's isolation] (54:25-01:03:57)

More info

• Harvard Study of Adult Development:

With the US presidential election fast approaching, and the unexpected entry of Kamala Harris into the race, gender issues are central to the debate. Polls suggest women are more likely to vote Democrat, and men – including young men – more likely to vote Republican. A particular focus of both campaigns is on seeking to win men over, drawing upon different cultural narratives of masculinity. How is the Trump/Vance campaign drawing on masculinist and misogynistic discourses to appeal to those men who feel marginalised and resentful of women’s gains? How are the Harris/Walz campaign seeking to promote a ‘new masculinity’, where men can be both steady and strong, tender and vulnerable?

In this episode, we explore with Rob Okun how this contemporary contest reflects shifting notions of masculinity over the past 50 years in the US. In particular, we discuss reproductive rights after the Roe vs Wade protection of the right to abortion was overturned by the Supreme Court in 2022, and the ways in which increasing numbers of men are acting in support of women’s right to choose.

We also talk with Rob about his longstanding involvement in the US profeminist men’s movement, and how becoming a father was a key factor in his own journey to activism and engagement. Rob is perhaps best known for being the editor and publisher from 1996 to 2023 of Voice Male magazine, covering topics including men’s violence, fatherhood, men’s health, and LGBTQIA+ issues, both in the US and internationally. He is also the editor of an excellent book, ‘Voice Male: The Untold Story of the Profeminist Men’s Movement’. He is a former executive director of the Men’s Resource Center for Change, which was one of the earliest men’s centers in North America. He continues to speak at colleges and universities around the US, and writes for newspapers and websites such as Ms. Magazine.

• Rob’s personal website: https://robokun.net
• Voice Male magazine: https://voicemalemagazine.org
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/voicemalemagazine
• Rob’s writing for Ms. Magazine: https://msmagazine.com/author/robokun/
• The 'Voice Male' book: https://shop.nextgenmen.ca/products/voice-male-the-untold-story-of-the-pro-feminist-mens-movement-by-rob-a-okun

Episode timeline

• Intro
• The impact of Hurricane Helene in North Carolina (02:22-07:11)
• The potential significance of having a woman of colour as president (07:11-13:08)
• The ‘gender split’ in voting patterns (13:08-17:11)
• How Trump and Vance have been exploiting some men’s grievances (17:11-24:44)
• A ‘new masculinity’ among the Democrats? (24:44-29:58)
• Break
• Rob’s journey In the US profeminist men’s movement (30:05-40:29)
• How Voice Male developed over time (40:29-45:38)
• How Rob sees his role in the movement now (45:38-51:18)
• What he thinks Americans should do ahead of the election (51:18-54:17)
• Conclusion [Comparing with Jackson Katz interview; The Man Card film; ‘Tampon Tim’; Democrat leaders still needing to emphasise their toughness; Trump targeting young men; the US being a centre-left country; The impact of fatherhood; Overlaps in activism] (54:22-01:00:37)

Explainers

• Patti Smith - ‘People have the power’