Why do men still benefit from higher pay, status, and power at work? What is the ideological and cultural underpinning that sustains the gendered division of labour? What are the harmful effects of workplace inequality on poverty, health, family life and women’s status? These are some of the key issues that Professor Cordelia Fine addresses in her witty and insightful new book ‘Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work’, which is listed as one of the non-fiction books to read this year by the UK Financial Times.

In our discussion, Cordelia draws on a wealth of evidence to explain how ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ operates, and how progress in dismantling unequal gender arrangements is stymied by two false visions: the ‘Diversity, Equality and Inclusion (DEI)’ approach, and the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective. Instead, she argues for a set of commonsense reforms which would benefit everyone. These include reorientating societies and workplaces around the assumption that most workers will have caring responsibilities; setting aside definitions of job ‘fit’ and success that exclude women and other marginalised groups; and addressing how the gender system is embedded in childhood.

We also explore some of the themes from her earlier book, Testosterone Rex, which won the Royal Society Science Book Prize. The book challenges the powerful myth that men and women have evolved fundamentally different natures, and that testosterone is responsible for ‘hard-wiring’ male brains to, for example, take risks, compete, and be violent. We conclude by discussing her motivations and influences as a writer, and the role of humour in her work.

Cordelia is Professor in the History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne. She was awarded the prestigious 2018 Edinburgh Medal for her work challenging gender bias in science, and was recently named as a living legend by The Australian newspaper.

• Buy the book: https://atlantic-books.co.uk/book/patriarchy-inc/
• Cordelia’s website: https://www.cordelia-fine.com
• Her University of Melbourne profile: https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/126041-cordelia-fine
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cordelia-fine-240773250/

Episode timeline

• Intro
• Why Cordelia wanted to write ‘Patriarchy Inc.’
• Why she takes issue with the ‘Different but Equal’ perspective
• Why the ‘DEI’ approach is also insufficient
• What her ‘Patriarchy Inc.’ approach adds
• How we can foster genuine equality in the workplace and society
• Break
• ‘Testosterone Rex’ and why men’s violence can’t be reduced to biology
• The use of humour in writing
• What led Cordelia into this research
• Conclusion (The nuances of DEI, Progress being non-linear, The role of trade unions, Capitalism and fatherhood, Valuing care)

Discussions about masculinity and violence against women have exploded into the spotlight, not least because of the widely-watched Netflix drama ‘Adolescence’. More and more men are asking: Why is ending this violence an issue for me? What can I do to be part of the solution? How can I overcome the barriers holding me back from taking action, such as feelings of defensiveness? These are some of the pressing questions leading anti-violence educator and scholar-activist Dr Jackson Katz addresses in his timely new book, 'Every Man: Why Violence Against Women is a Men’s Issue, and How You Can Make a Difference'.

In this episode, Jackson sets out the case for men’s involvement, and essential tools to help us contribute to preventing violence against women: from how to respond when a friend or colleague expresses misogynistic views, to changing the culture among our peers, to developing positive leadership among men on this issue.

We also discuss ‘Adolescence’ and its impact on, and implications for, parents, teachers, police officers and other key figures and institutions in young men’s (and women’s) lives.

We conclude by revisiting the political situation in the US, and how men are responding to the backward-looking narratives coming from figures like President Trump and Vice-President JD Vance about what ‘real men’ should be like.

Jackson is an American educator, speaker and writer internationally renowned for his groundbreaking work on issues of gender, race, and violence. His TEDx Talk 'Violence against women - it's a men's issue' has been watched 5.5 million+ times. He co-founded the pioneering gender violence prevention programme, Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP), which was the first large-scale prevention initiative in sports culture and all branches of the US military, and has been rolled out in schools across the US and parts of the UK.

Jackson’s book ‘Every Man’ is now available in the UK through Penguin, and will be published in the US by Bloomsbury in Sept 2025: https://www.penguin.com.au/books/every-man-9780241672662

• Find out more about Jackson’s work: https://www.jacksonkatz.com
• His writing for Ms Magazine: https://msmagazine.com/author/jkatz/
• Follow him on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackson-katz-ph-d-b7785b3/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jacksontkatz
• Watch his TEDx Talk, ‘Violence against women – It’s a men's issue’: https://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8

Episode timeline:

• Introduction
• Jackson’s views on ‘Adolescence’ and its impact (02:26-06:53)
• Showing the series in schools (06:53-10:11)
• Why Jackson wrote ‘Every Man’, and the difficulties of getting a book on this topic published (10:11-14:52)
• Why men might respond defensively, and how to move past that (14:52-20:52)
• The positive impacts of feminism on Jackson’s own life (20:52-27:29)
• Break
• The bystander approach and what it looks in practice (27:36-35:26)
• Its use in settings such as the military, and a different kind of leadership (35:26-43:52)
• Masculinity in the Trump 2.0 presidency, and signs of resistance (43:52-53:47)
• Why men need to face our fears of being ‘unmanned’ (53:47-56:54)
• Conclusion [The lessons of...

Tarang Chawla knows firsthand the devastating impacts of men’s violence, and the ripple effects it sends through families and communities – including on other boys and men. This is what led him to set up Not One More Niki, in memory of his younger sister Nikita who was murdered by her partner in 2015. Tarang is one of Australia’s most well-known and outspoken male advocates against gender-based violence. He talks to us about where he thinks Australian society needs to go from here in its efforts to end men’s violence against women, after a year in which a series of terrible murders brought this onto the agenda in a way not seen before.

We also discuss the position of gender equality and masculinity in the upcoming Australian federal election, including on issues such as ‘law and order’; coming to terms with racism and colonialism in Australia and the UK; and why understanding boys’ and men’s experiences of race and class can help us to reach out to them more meaningfully.

Tarang is an award-winning speaker, writer, advocate, and recovering lawyer. Among other things, he is a Commissioner at the Victorian Multicultural Commission, and a sessional academic at Monash University and the University of Melbourne. He also wrote, produced and hosted the first two series of the acclaimed podcast There's No Place Like Home.

• Tarang’s website: https://tarangchawla.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tarangchawla
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tarangchawla/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tarangchawlaonline
• Not One More Niki: https://www.instagram.com/notonemoreniki
• There’s No Place Like Home: https://www.futurewomen.com/theresnoplacelikehome/

Episode timeline

• Intro and acknowledgement of country
• Tarang’s journey into working to end men’s violence against women (03:17-06:28)
• Media portrayals of men who use violence (06:28-10:49)
• Talking about the ripple effects of men’s violence (10:49-14:04)
• The obstacles of masculine expectations (14:04-16:15)
• Men’s experiences of child sexual abuse (16:15-21:30)
• Being a spokesperson on these issues as a man (21:30-27:42)
• Break
• The impact of recent high-profile murders of Australian women (27:53-32:17)
• Debates about prevention work in Australia (32:17-36:35)
• Masculinity in the upcoming Australian election (36:35-39:09)
• Discourses about being ‘tough on crime’ (39:09-43:00)
• The pushback against equity and diversity initiatives (43:00-46:06)
• Racism in Australia (46:06-49:12)
• Understanding men and boys’ own experiences of marginalisation (49:12-54:43)
• Conclusion [Addressing sexism and racism simultaneously; Punitive responses to crime; Coming to the terms with British colonialism] (56:06-01:02:09)

More info

• “Earlier this month, it was announced that former AFL player Ben Cousins will join the Seven Network’s commentary team” https://www.smh.com.au/national/ben-cousins-new-tv-job-is-offensive-to-women-20250314-p5ljni.html
• “Locking up young...