This is the final episode of the Let's Think Digital podcast in its current form.

I've been thinking a lot about transitions recently. Last month, I had the honour of being asked to serve as Vice President of Learning and Leadership at the Institute of Governance. The IOG is a not-for-profit, non-partisan organization that I’ve worked with for a number of years that does important work to advance good public governance. Its mission is needed now more than ever as governments are under increased expectations to modernize and evolve to meet the moment. I'm excited to take on this challenge and bring my work from Think Digital under IOG's banner.

With this change, it seemed like the right time to think about the future of this podcast as well. It has been a really amazing experience hosting the podcast these past three seasons and I'm very proud of what we've been able to produce and share with our broader community through it. The goal was always to help spark greater awareness and more conversations about what it means to have a modern, effective government in a digital world. I feel like we've been able to help move this discussion forward. I'm also heartened that increasingly others are raising these issues and adding their voices to the mix. However for me personally, this felt like the right time to bring this particular iteration of the podcast to a close for now.

So on this final episode, I wanted to share my thoughts about transitions. Not just for me personally, but also about the transition that institutions and society are facing in this current moment of uncertainty and change we are all in.

And of course, I wanted to take the time to thank all of you for joining us on this journey over the last few years. It's been an absolute joy and pleasure to bring you these conversations and I'm so grateful for our growing audience of thousands of people from across Canada and dozens of countries around the world. Please stay subscribed and engaged, as I do hope that we will continue to be able to bring you content and perspective from time to time from myself and our colleagues in the digital government ecosystem.

Finally my sincere thanks to our team and everyone who has contributed to building and producing Let's Think Digital over the past few years. In particular I want to thank our producer (and my friend) Wayne Chu, as without his hard work and dedication none of this would have happened.

My sincerest thanks again, and as always, let's keep thinking digital!

-Ryan Androsoff, Host of Let's Think Digital

Watch on YouTube

https://youtu.be/bSuHinHC4Ps?si=Apa0EuQcQudH-isb

Related Links

• Ryan on CBC Radio's The Current with Matt Galloway talking about Estonia's digital transformation and lessons for Canada
• Ryan on Derek Alton's Civic Punks talking about why Canada has declined in international rankings around digital government
• Ryan on the GovMaker podcast with Nick Scott and Jason Pearman talking about his career journey and advice on how to innovate in government
• Kathryn May's The Functionary newsletter

To change systems, sometimes you need to bend the rules, or even rewrite them. That's the argument that Alistair Croll and Emily Ross make in their new book, Just Evil Enough: The Subversive Marketing Handbook. In this episode we speak to Alistair about his new book, which offers numerous case studies and frameworks on how to drive change with subversive tactics while keeping in mind how far is too far. Indeed, one chapter in the book is titled: "Don't Actually be Evil"!

This is particularly relevant in this year of transition and change. Whether it is elections and new government mandates coming in Canada (and a new Prime Minister, or maybe two!), or the shocking takeover of government systems in the United States by Elon Musk's "Department of Government Efficiency", it's important to understand the ways in which people are able to disrupt systems that resist change.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I21jkJ98W6A

Related Links

• Just Evil Enough: The Subversive Marketing Handbook, by Alistair Croll and Emily Ross

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:04 Interview with Alistair

10:18 How Much Change Can Government Absorb?

21:55 Are Leaders Equipped to Understand Change?

31:42 Looking to the Future

38:44 Conclusion

Data is the lifeblood of any organization, including government. And in today’s digital age, there are very real questions about whether governments are capable of managing the enormous amount of data that is now collected. We’re no longer in an era where data was created at human scale with pen and paper on a government form. Instead, governments are increasingly being flooded with an avalanche of digital data from a huge number of sources. And there are high expectations that governments are able to use these data points to make better decisions, that data is managed responsibility, and that the people in government have the ability to consume all of this data in an increasingly complex world.

Not only that, but governments now need to be prepared for the rapid evolution of artificial intelligence and the increasing incorporation of machine learning models, semantic analysis, and algorithmic decision-making applications in programs and service delivery. These are technologies built on big data, and governments need to be prepared to leverage them in the public interest.

So this week, we’re talking to three people (and one Artificial Intelligence!) who have been thinking deeply about the policy and capacity challenges that governments need to get ahead of when it comes to their data posture.

Our first conversation is with Maddy Dwyer, a Policy Analyst from the Center for Democracy and Technology. Maddy has been conducting research on the tension between leveraging data to improve the lives of citizens, including those from marginalized communities, and the dangers if we don’t do this responsibility. This conversation took place last November on the conference floor at FWD50 in Ottawa.

The second conversation is with Anna Wong, a Director at the Government of Canada's Treasury Board Secretariat, and Trevor Banks, Manager of Digital Organisational Design in the same team. They have been working on efforts to support organizational change across the Federal government to establish clear accountabilities and responsibilities for Chief Data Officers and other senior digital and data leaders across the public service to help them manage the quickly rising expectations of government in the age of AI.

And, as a fun little experiment, our third conversation is directly with what is perhaps the most famous AI model in the world these days: OpenAI's ChatGPT. Using ChatGPT's voice input/output feature we ask it what it thinks about all of these issues around data and AI in government we're hearing about. Ryan also asks it his favourite hard-hitting AI question: does it think it is smarter than his cats?

Watch on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgB7KcmXaZA

Related Links

• Maddy Dwyer's research at the Center for Democracy and Technology
• 2023-2026 Data Strategy for the Federal Public Service
• The Evolving Role of the Chief Data Officer, report by the Institute on Governance

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

03:02 Maddy Dwyer

20:54 Anna Wong and Trevor Banks

46:36 Interview with ChatGPT

1:01:37 Conclusion

International assistance and aid can help bring people out of poverty, build peace and security, and drive economic prosperity. For Canada, it's also a major source of its soft power globally. In fact, Global Affairs Canada delivers around $15 billion dollars a year in international assistance, of which approximately $6 billion is delivered through what is known in the federal government as “Grants and Contributions” to non-governmental agencies, charities, and other partners around the world. And while the amount and form of international aid given by Canada can sometimes be a divisive political topic and a difficult policy challenge, it’s fair to say that everyone wants to see those international assistance dollars used as effectively as possible.

So why are we talking about international aid and assistance on Let’s Think Digital?

There's a really interesting digital transformation project happening right now at Global Affairs Canada. This multi-year initiative, being undertaken in partnership with the public interest tech non-profit, Code for Canada, is hoping to transform how Global Affairs administers its Grants and Contributions programs. The goal is to completely modernize what have traditionally been outdated, siloed, manual processes, leading to more effective international assistance programs.

It's a pretty interesting project that has aspects of many common challenges we see in government digital transformation. To tell us all about it, we spoke to Brandon Lee, Director General of the Grants and Contributions Transformation Initiative at Global Affairs Canada, and Dorothy Eng, CEO of Code for Canada and friend of the podcast. We spoke to them last November on site at the FWD50 Conference in Ottawa.

Watch on YouTube

https://youtu.be/J8R0zES1COE?si=lFMGqzMU99MQA7Hq

Related Links

• Global Affairs Canada Grants and Contributions Transformation Initiative
• Risk Appetite Hackathon Report
• Code for Canada

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

02:01 Brandon Lee and Dorothy Eng

03:37 Challenges in Grants and Contributions

09:43 Code for Canada's Role in the Transformation

15:37 Implementing Agile in Government

23:36 Expected Outcomes and Success Metrics

29:45 Digital Diplomacy and Broader Impacts

32:43 Conclusion and Closing Remarks

As much as we talk on this podcast about transforming and modernizing governments and bureaucracies, we can’t ignore the role of the private sector which is often working in very embedded ways with government when it comes to all things digital.

Whether it’s the role of private tech firms and consultants and their complex and sometimes contested relationship with governments, or the impact of the economic, technological, and even the growing diplomatic power of big tech firms like Google, Facebook, Microsoft or Amazon, there is an increasing level of skepticism about the role that tech companies are playing, their power and influence in society, and lingering questions about if we’ve struck the right balance.

On this episode, we talk to Dr. Alexis Wichowski, who has written a book about these issues called "The Information Trade: How Big Tech Conquers Countries, Challenges Our Rights, and Transforms Our World." In the book, she talks about the metamorphosis of big tech from simply companies with market power to entities that can mimic or act like states in their own right.

Dr. Wichowski is a Professor of Practice at Columbia University, where she teaches the next generation of leaders about the intersections of technology and public service. Before that, she served as the Deputy CTO for the City of New York, Associate Commissioner for NYC's Department of Veterans' Services, and various roles within the US Department of State and the US Mission to the United Nations.

In our wide-ranging conversation, held at the FWD50 conference in Ottawa last November, we spoke about the capacity of bureaucracies to drive digital transformation, the competencies needed in government to thrive in the digital era, and how governments can adapt to the growing power of big tech in society.

Watch on YouTube

https://youtu.be/5dPbg4GogCQ?si=fKLIlVOAcTG8bEYB

Related Links

• The Information Trade: How Big Tech Conquers Countries, Challenges Our Rights, and Transforms Our World
• Alexis Wichowski's Website
• Dr. Alexis Wichowski's Research Page at Columbia University

Chapters

00:00 Introduction

03:04 Alexis Wichowski

10:25 Teaching the Next Generation of Leaders

15:35 The Power of Big Tech on our Lives

22:03 Big Tech and Diplomatic Power

28:18 Technology Consultants

Trust is everything. It’s clear we’re in a moment in time where people do not trust their governments. There is skepticism about the impact of big technology companies, concerns about new technologies like artificial intelligence, and fear about the future, including the future of our democratic institutions themselves.

So we should be concerned about how complex, opaque, and often infuriating bureaucratic systems can further challenge citizens’ faith in government and erode trust in those who are there to serve the public. Whether it is navigating complex tax filing rules, trying to access health care supports, or something a simple as getting a passport renewed, delays and failed service delivery experiences raise doubt in the minds of citizens as to government's ability to accomplish even basic tasks.

So how can we rebuild this trust?

On today's episode, the second of of our two-part deep dive into the Estonian digital modernization journey, we're talking to Andres Raieste, Senior Vice President of Public Sector (Global) at the Estonian-based digital transformation firm Nortal. Andres has over 15 years of experience in digital modernization and began his career in Estonia as a digital government expert. Since then he has been responsible for many high-impact, large-scale government transformation programs and reforms globally, as well as producing thought leadership and developing practices to help governments deliver better digital services to its citizens.

Nortal recently released a report on trust, called "Formula for creating trust in digital government" which he talked about on stage at the FWD50 conference in Ottawa last month. So when we met up during his visit to Canada, we talked about why trust is important and how digital services can best create trust in society through small incremental improvements in services rather than focusing on flashy innovation. We even got into a discussion on the role of emerging technologies like blockchain and AI and how to get past the hype and focus on results.

Watch on YouTube

https://youtu.be/FzbyuwzRcrI?si=on3TMZHtfq8Wj00E

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and the Importance of Trust in Government

01:27 Rebuilding Trust: The Estonian Digital Transformation

03:20 Interview with Andres Raieste

07:46 The Role of Trust in Digital Government

15:24 Tax Collection and Trust in Estonia

23:18 Transparency and Data Ownership in Estonia

27:45 Digital Public Infrastructure

36:01 Blockchain and Cybersecurity in Estonia

43:24 Personal Government

48:59 Reducing Complexity in Government Services

53:59 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Follow the digital government space long enough and you will hear about Estonia. Despite being a small country of 1.4 million people with an overall economy that by total size is only 101st in the world, it is a powerhouse in digital government services. In the most recent United Nations e-government ranking, Estonia ranks 2nd in the world, and has been in the top 10 for many years.

So what is it about Estonia that has allowed it to leapfrog into being a global digital government leader?

On this episode we’re going to explore this question with those who have been on the front lines of Estonia’s digital government revolution.

We’re speaking to Estonian Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta who was recently appointed into that role in July of this year. She has an interesting mandate as both the digital government lead for Estonia as well as leading the Justice portfolio.

We also spoke to Siim Sikkut, who was the CIO of the Estonian government between 2017 and 2022 and was one of those responsible for the development of Estonia’s e-residency program in his prior role as an advisor on digital government to the Estonian Prime Minister.

And we also heard from Ville Sirviö, CEO of the Nordic Institute for Interoperability Solutions, the non-profit that leads development of one of the core pieces of digital infrastructure in Estonia, the X-Road.

You can also find the full, uncut interviews with Minister Pakosta, Siim, and Ville on our Let's Think Digital YouTube channel.

This is the first of two episodes on the Estonia digital experience. Watch out for our next episode where we delve deep into the topic of trust as a key ingredient for modernizing government.

Watch on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ9Tl4c-uUo

Related Links

• Minister of Justice and Digital Affairs Liisa-Ly Pakosta
• Digital Nation
• Nordic Institute for Interoperability Solutions
• “There is no blockchain technology in X-Road”, blog post from NIIS
• E-Estonia
• “How it all began? From Tiger Leap to digital society”, Education Estonia

Chapters

00:00 Welcome and introductions

03:17 Liisa-Ly Pakosta and the Estonian experience

07:25 Siim Sikkut and e-residency

20:31 Ville Serviö and X-Road

26:13 Getting past bureaucratic and political blockers

37:25 Improving the foundations

50:14 Conclusion

Canada has fallen from 3rd in the 2010 UN e-gov rankings to 47 in 2024. We’re stuck when it comes to modernizing government for the digital era. But our guests this week, recorded on location at this year’s FWD50 conference in Ottawa, have a new playbook that they say can help get governments in Canada out of the rut and back on track.

Anna Hirschfeld and Alex MacEachern and are two of the authors of a new report from the UK-based digital government advisory firm Public Digital called A Radical How for Canada (https://public.digital/where-we-work/canada/a-radical-how-for-canada). It takes inspiration from a similarly titled report that Tom Loosemore and others from Public Digital published last year focused on the UK. It lays out concrete recommendations on the steps that governments in Canada need to take in order to change how government works for the better.

Anna has been with Public Digital since 2020 where she is now their Regional Director for Canada. She has supported work with the Nova Scotia and British Columbia provincial governments, as well as other projects back home in the UK. Before that, she worked in the UK government including as the Senior Product Manager on the UK Universal Credit programme, scaling it up from a proof of concept to a live service supporting six million people.

Before recently joining Public Digital, Alex was Chief of Staff at the Canadian Digital Service as the team grew from just 30 people to 150, and was involved in a number of significant digital transformation projects in the federal government.

Related Links

• A Radical How for Canada

Watch on YouTube

https://youtu.be/kA0cc1mdQ7s

Chapters

00:00 Welcome and Introductions

02:41 Interview and Anna and Alex

07:40 A Radical How for Canada

16:34 Reflections on ArriveCan

24:48 Political Transitions

38:38 Funding and Procurement

46:47 Conclusion