I am just back from a vacation that took me across three states, one Navajo reservation, and some federal land in the southwest of the United States. Departing the humid and heavily greened northeast to the dry and brown and red landscapes of the southwest was a major transition. I have never spent that much time in that part of the country, so it was, you might say, quite the experience. Traveling throughout the region really revealed the expansiveness of it. The lack of foliage will do that as you can kind of see to the horizon between the buttes and mesas.

It also was my first time flying in a long time where I didn’t have to take off my shoes going through security. That was exciting. Well, maybe not exciting but one less thing to manage and deal with given all the other rules and restrictions that we have to face when trying to get to our lanes.

When thinking about the trip and all the jurisdictions I crossed, it can be hard to keep track of what I can and cannot do. City laws, state laws, federal laws, tribal laws, airport regulations. What’s legal in Vegas is not legal in Sedona. What you might be able to do in Page, Arizona isn’t necessarily the same as St. George, Utah. You get the point. And let’s keep in mind that all of this started in Boston, Massachusetts. The law can be complicated no matter what, and only becomes that much more challenging when you are throwing in all of these different environments.

And did I mention the seemingly constant shift in time zones as you cross different borders?

My guest today has a keen interest in making the law more manageable. Professor Demetrios Karis has been exploring ways of improving legal design to improve access and outcomes for citizens engaging the courts. As we discuss, there is plenty of work to do that keeps him and his students busy. From legal forms, to wayfinding in courts, to translating legal procedures, to legal language itself, the law has a lot of room to make things easier and create better experiences.

I talk with Demetrios, who is a colleague of mine at Bentley University, about the origins of his user experience career through this PhD in Experimental Psychology from Cornell. He shares his first job at Grumman Aircraft, where he was looking at the design of cockpits and instrumentation as part of their internal research and development group. He shares his journey to Verizon, and then to Google where he learned more about doing qualitative research and ethnography. He then discusses how his teaching at Bentley University and experiences in the court system resulted in working with the Massachusetts courts to try to improve access and usability of courts and the law. As he states, the court system is designed by lawyers for lawyers. Despite that, more people are representing themselves, which results in massive challenges on what to do and how to do it.

We also talk about his writing on the collapse of human civilization resulting from the sustainability crisis, and how we need to tackle challenges in complex systems through intensive study, creativity, and determination to make positive changes.

Demetrios Karis LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/demetrioskaris/

Demetrios Karis Researchgate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Demetrios-Karis

Throughout my career as a sociologist, I have come to the conclusion that people find sociologists annoying on a deeply personal level. Anthropologists have great stories about travelling to exotic locations. People seem to really appreciate psychology because they think it helps them to better understand why people do the things they do. Historians, while might be boring with their details and minutiae of past events, at least have something to help carry a conversation at a party. Perhaps the only other truly annoying academic profession are philosophers, but they may spend more time talking to themselves than other people.

What makes sociologists annoying, in my opinion as a sociologist, is that we think critically all the time about everything. It is not just how we are trained; it is how we are wired. You could show a sociologist a picture of puppies playing in a field, and the sociologist would talk about the perils of puppy mills. You could assure the sociologist that these are from a rescue, and the sociologist would talk about there is a lack of oversight and regulation of these organizations and the emotional manipulation of Sarah McLachlan commercials. You could assure the sociologist that this in fact is a wonderful animal rescue, and the sociologist will talk about how veterinary services in the United States cost more than in other parts of the world, and then launch into a discussion of the lack of healthcare overall. We are exhausting. But the critical thinking element is nevertheless important, because through critical thinking and critical analysis, progress and improvements can be made.

The person who joins me today on Experience by Design is neither a sociologist nor annoying, but is a critical thinker and thought leader in his field. Andrew Carothers has had a long career in customer experience, and has some perspectives to share about its past, present, and future. In his opinion, customer experience is in its teenage years, a kind of awkward adolescence where it is trying to find its identity. In finding its way, it also has to find ways to define its importance and relevance to organizational success and culture.

We talk about the need for CX to go beyond the metrics it has, but also find other metrics that matter. Andrew discusses the need to put CX more centrally into strategy. We also explore the implications of artificial intelligence for customer experience as a feature and a profession. Andrew emphasizes that good enough is often good enough, especially if that is all that customers want. Finally, we explore how keeping customers is easier than getting customers, and that CX can provide the path to do so, but only if it continues to grow up.

Andrew Carothers LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-carothers/

One of the things that I have come to thoroughly enjoy as a type of past time is the learning about the history of World War II in the Pacific theater. A book that I have been listening to recently is “Japanese Destroyer Captain” by Captain Tameichi Hara. It is amazing listening to give a version of things from the perspective of a Japanese naval commander who went through the Imperial Japanese Naval college at Etajima and then saw action across the war. Getting a sense of what that experience was like from his point of view very much helps to get a greater overall understanding of the war because after all, history is about perspective.

I felt the same way about the book “D-Day through German Eyes.” Perspective switching is a vital skill and ability because it allows us to get outside of our own world view and take the position of others.

My guest today on Experience by Design knows all about telling stories, and also all about the navy. Christian Lachel started his career in the US Navy in special warfare and special forces. But an injury curtailed that career and led him to attend the ArtCenter College of Design, where he also taught. His background in design, storytelling, and media and history eventually found him at the company BRC Imagination Arts, where he is now Chief Creative Officer.

Christian has been involved in creating 5 USA Pavilion Exhibits at World Expos, which requires crafting what story to tell about the United States. This includes the USA Pavilion currently in Osaka, Japan. He also has worked with the Henry Ford Museum and the River Rouge plant, which if you know labor history has special meaning regarding the rise of unions and collective bargaining.

We talk about how storytelling is about bringing together perspectives and capturing different points of view. He emphasizes the importance of deep listening and research with all stakeholders to make sure their voices are included. We also discuss how that story has to be distilled in a way that audiences will be entertained and engaged. Christian is focused on what we can create collectively as a community and world when we work together toward a common goal, and hope that this is what is communicated through his work. The importance and power of the experiences he helps to create is to provide that shared meaning which resonates individually and brings people together collectively.

Christian Lachel LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christianlachel/

BRC Imagination Arts: https://www.brcweb.com/

USA Pavilion Osaka 2025: https://www.expo2025.or.jp/en/official-participant/united-states-of-america/