We explore the vital intersection of organisational design, leadership culture, and power dynamics with special guest Susannah Robinson, author of Beyond the Boxes and Lines.

Zoë kicks off the episode with exciting updates on the Power Games Kickstarter campaign and a groundbreaking Planet Human segment on brain-computer interfaces that enable near real-time speech interpretation for paralysed individuals.

Then we dive into the conversation with Susannah, who brings over 30 years of HR and organisational design experience. She shares practical frameworks for rethinking job roles, enhancing collaboration, and resolving structural friction in organisations.

Together, we unpack what causes cultural breakdowns, the consequences of poorly implemented matrix structures, and why flatter hierarchies may not be the magic bullet many leaders believe they are.

SHOWNOTES are here:
https://www.zoerouth.com/podcast/organisational-design

Planet Human:
Brain implant enables a paralysed woman’s thoughts to be streamed into speech
https://singularityhub.com/2025/03/31/brain-implant-streams-a-paralyzed-womans-thoughts-as-if-shes-speaking-in-near-real-time

Kickstarter Campaign:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zoerouth/power-games-stop-toxic-power-in-the-workplace

"When the person leaves the role, we finally take the lid off the pot and discover everything they were actually doing." – Susannah Robinson

"Leadership today isn’t just about giving direction, it's about managing your impact." – Susannah Robinson

"Collaboration needs good structure. Culture is the bridge." – Zoë Routh

1. What triggers the need for a redesign of organisational structures?

2. How can job design improve retention and employee engagement?

3. What are the common friction points in team handoffs and collaboration?

4. How do flatter hierarchies shift leadership expectations?

5. What structural patterns lead to power struggles and office politics?

6. How should leaders handle stonewalling behaviour in the workplace?
   
   

Take Action

• Audit your structure. When someone leaves, resist the urge to simply refill the role. Ask: could we do this differently?

• Map job design. Identify overlaps, friction points, and gaps in role clarity especially where handoffs occur.

• Assess your collaboration culture. Are your incentive systems and tools aligned with teamwork, or unintentionally rewarding lone wolves?

• Educate your teams. Use visual tools (like “five guys, one piano” teamwork analogy or org charts) to demystify structure and process.

• Normalise discomfort. Have the hard conversations about misalignment, underperformance, or mismatched roles with compassion and clarity.

Before you flatten your hierarchy or shift to team-based models, first ensure your systems (incentives, tools, contracts) are designed to support that culture. Otherwise, you’re simply rearranging the dysfunction.

Key Moments

00:00 Introduction and Weekly Question

00:16 Exciting Advances in Brain-Computer Interfaces

01:41 Introducing 'Power Games' Book Launch

04:11 Strategies for High-Performing Teams

06:21 Interview with Susanna Robinson on Organisational Design

19:42 Exploring Organisational Structures

20:16 The Concept of Hollow Organisations

21:27 Visualizing Organisational Models

23:00 Flattening Hierarchies: Pros and Cons

25:32 Encouraging Team-Based Environments

28:06 Barriers to Collaboration

29:44 Office Politics and Power Games

31:52 Quickfire Leadership Insights

33:15 Handling Employee Stonewalling

35:35 Conclusion and Resources

We explore the future of ownership, wealth, and rewriting the rules of capitalism with Elle Griffin, founder of The Elysian and author of the upcoming book We Should Own the Economy. Zoë shares updates on her recent bushwalking adventure and the exciting Kickstarter launch for her new book Power Games. Then, she welcomes Elle, a visionary writer reshaping the conversation on who truly benefits from economic systems.

Elle shares her journey from journalist to entrepreneurial writer, how she built multiple revenue streams on Substack, and why she believes ownership—not employment—is the real source of power. We unpack the risks and rewards of decentralising ownership, how employee-owned companies could transform wealth distribution, and what fiction can do to help us imagine better futures. This conversation dives deep into economic systems, leadership identity, and why utopian thinking is more urgent than ever.

SHOWNOTES are here:
https://www.zoerouth.com/podcast/utopian-concepts

Planet Human:
China enters the era of flying taxis with certified passenger drones.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1jojjqq/china_has_officially_entered_the_era_of_flying

Kickstarter Campaign:
Power Games: Stop Toxic Power in the Workplace – Live now on Kickstarter!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zoerouth/power-games-stop-toxic-power-in-the-workplace

Key Quotes:

“Ownership is power. If you own a business, you hold the levers of wealth creation.” - Elle Griffin

“We need stories that give us hope, not just warn us of collapse.” - Elle Griffin

“Leadership requires humility and curiosity—the antidote to hubris and manipulation.” - Zoë Routh

- What inspired Elle to move from journalism to entrepreneurial writing?
- How do employee-owned companies shift the wealth equation?
- Why are we so drawn to dystopian narratives, and what role does fiction play in shaping the future?
- What are the practical steps to decentralise power and create more economic inclusion?

Take Action:

- Reflect on your own business or organisation: Who holds the power, and who shares in the rewards?

- Explore models of employee ownership or equity participation as part of your leadership strategy.

- Join conversations that imagine better futures—whether in your workplace or your community.

Start your own Future of Work conversation with your team:

-What could a more equitable and collaborative model look like for us?
-How might we experiment with shared ownership, decision-making, or profit-sharing in small ways today?

Key Moments:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:20 Flying Taxis in China

00:55 Bush Walk Adventures

01:53 Power Games Book Launch

03:06 Collaboration Challenges

07:37 Interview with Elle Griffin

09:16 Elle Griffin's Writing Journey

15:00 The Future of Capitalism

31:18 The Role of Influence in Politics and Wealth

32:24 Addressing Wealth Inequality

33:34 Employee Ownership and Regulatory Hurdles

38:13 Power Dynamics in Decentralized Systems

42:12 Fast Three: Quickfire Questions

43:56 Utopian vs. Dystopian Visions

51:04 Innovative Book Publishing Model

54:26 Book Recommendations and Closing Remarks

We explore the future of communication through the lens of conflict, with Lena Morgan, former midwife turned conflict resolution specialist. Zoë shares updates from Planet Human, reflecting on the scathing insights from the Edelman Trust Barometer and her return from the Australian Alpine Walking Track. The Kickstarter for her latest book, Power Games, is on the horizon.

Then we welcome Lena Morgan, creator of The Fight Languages. Lena unpacks how understanding our instinctive conflict responses can turn tension into connection. Drawing on her experience in high-stress environments, she shares how organisations can transform culture by decoding these ‘fight languages.’

This episode delves into how somatic intelligence, leadership presence, and emotional fluency are crucial in today’s polarised environments.

SHOWNOTES are here:

https://www.zoerouth.com/podcast/conflict-resolution-fight-languages

Power Games: https://www.zoerouth.com/power-games

Zoë's Substack: https://substack.com/@zoerouth

Planet Human:

Edelman Trust Barometer reveals collapsing trust in key institutions, with growing class divides and despair.

https://www.edelman.com/trust-barometer

Key Quotes:

"Conflict is information—it tells us what matters most to people." – Lena Morgan

"Assume self-interest, not good intent. That’s how we keep eyes wide open and hearts open." – Zoë Routh

"We all stay in the fight too long. The real skill is knowing when to pause and pivot." – Lena Morgan

Questions Asked:

What are the five fight languages and how do they show up in teams?

How can leaders manage their own conflict response before addressing others’?

Why is somatic intelligence essential in high-stakes conversations?

How can we better support extinguishers, amplifiers, and analyzers in a workplace?

Take Action:

Notice your personal conflict pattern. Are you an igniter, amplifier, negotiator, analyzer, or extinguisher?

Use Lena’s techniques to pause and pivot—whether it’s through movement, silence, or strategic escape.

Open dialogue with your team about how they experience tension. Use the fight language framework to foster mutual understanding.

Tip of the Week

Create a “fight language map” with your team. Identify each member’s default response and explore ways to better support one another in high-tension moments.

Key Moments

00:00 Introduction and Weekly Theme

00:23 Edelman Trust Barometer Report

01:30 Restoring Trust in Systems

02:36 Positive Aspects in Australia

03:27 Personal Update and Upcoming Projects

04:24 Assuming Good Intent in Conflict

05:24 Exploring Power Games and Self-Interest

08:25 Interview with Lena Morgan: Fight Languages

16:25 Understanding Different Fight Languages

22:44 Understanding the Analyzer's Perspective

23:26 Introducing the Extinguishers

24:41 Navigating Mixed Fight Languages

26:10 Starting with Your Own Fight Language

27:22 Techniques for Managing Fight Responses

29:45 Handling Different Fight Languages

35:51 The Fast Three Questions

37:34 The Importance of Conflict in Relationships and Business

38:24 Conclusion and Resources