Some say internal product managers aren’t doing “real” product work. Ryan, Todd, and Joe aren’t buying it. In this episode, they dig into the differences between internal and external product management, and why shifting your mindset, not your products, can give your career the biggest boost.

External PMs get the spotlight with customer growth, revenue goals, and flashy product launches. Internal PMs deal with coworkers as customers, adoption that’s often mandatory, and success measured in efficiency or time saved. That doesn’t make the work less real, it just means the playbook is different. We discuss how internal PMs can dodge the “ticket taker” trap, run discovery without falling into proximity bias, and know when to stick with project mechanics versus when to step back and think like a product manager. They also break down why internal PM can be one of the fastest ways to sharpen your skills and prove your impact.

If you’ve ever felt like your internal PM role doesn’t count, or wondered how to turn it into a career advantage, the porch is open, pull up a chair, and join the conversation.

Introduction: Is Internal PM Real?
[00:00] Setting up the question – Ryan, Todd, and Joe tee up the debate on whether internal PM counts as “real” product management.
[02:15] Frustrations from the field – stories of internal PMs being dismissed as “just project managers.”

Internal vs External: What Really Changes
[05:30] Defining external PM – customers, revenue, growth, flashy launches.
[07:20] Defining internal PM – coworkers as users, adoption is mandatory, success measured in efficiency and time saved.
[10:05] Why the differences matter – mindset, not mechanics, shapes career growth.

Dodging the Ticket Taker Trap
[13:40] When internal PMs get stuck – how backlog triage turns into order taking.
[15:55] Moving from tickets to outcomes – tying work to measurable efficiency and risk reduction.

Discovery and the Danger of Proximity
[20:10] What good discovery looks like – even when your users are down the hall.
[22:45] Avoiding assumptions – why access doesn’t mean you know what coworkers need.
[25:30] Practical tips – running interviews, validating real pain, challenging “just build this” requests.

Project Mechanics vs Product Thinking
[30:05] When execution dominates – rollouts with fixed deadlines and requirements.
[32:20] When to step back – shifting into product mode to uncover problems worth solving.
[35:15] Blending approaches – how internal PMs can flex between project and product.

Career Acceleration Through Internal PM
[40:00] Why internal PM is a bootcamp – faster cycles, broader skill-building.
[42:10] Internal PM as a stepping stone – building credibility and positioning for future roles.
[45:00] Final reflections – why internal PM is not just real product management, but a powerful path to growth.

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Ever wonder how to position yourself in a job search the same way you’d position a product?

In this episode, Todd Blaquiere and Joe Ghali welcome back resume and storytelling expert Nils Davis to talk about how product managers can stand out in a crowded job market by running their job hunt like a go-to-market strategy.
We cover why resumes should read like short stories instead of laundry lists, how to uncover your true differentiators, and why research on the company and hiring manager is as essential as product discovery. Nils shares practical ways to frame your value, Todd talks about the mindset that sets you apart in interviews, and Joe highlights what hiring managers actually look for when reading resumes.
If you’re job searching and tired of blending in with 50 other candidates, this episode will give you actionable strategies to treat yourself like the product and position your career for success.

If you’re navigating the job market right now, pull up a chair on the porch and learn how to apply your PM skills to the ultimate product: you.

• Connect with Nils: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nilsdavis/
• The Secret Product Manager Handbook
• Sign up for the Product Porch Newsletter

Introduction and Setting the Stage
[00:00] Welcome and guest intro – Joe, Todd, and Nils set up the discussion around job search as product management.
[01:00] Why job seekers struggle – Common pitfalls PMs face when trying to stand out.

The Importance of Differentiators
[01:19] What makes you different – Nils explains why generic claims like “customer-obsessed” don’t work.
[03:45] Finding your edge – Examples of strong differentiators that hiring managers remember.

Resume Strategies and Common Pitfalls
[05:31] Why copy-pasting job descriptions fails – The trap of tailoring too literally.
[08:15] Story-driven resumes – Using problems, actions, and outcomes to make impact clear.

Crafting a Compelling Resume Narrative
[12:10] The resume as a story – Nils shares how to highlight transformation and business impact.
[16:40] Avoiding vague statements – How to show results with concrete outcomes.

Interview Preparation and Mindset
[19:38] Research like discovery – Treating hiring managers like users to understand their needs.
[23:35] Todd’s interview mindset – Why you should never discount your value going in.

Differentiators and Superpowers
[27:57] Owning your superpower – How to identify strengths and communicate them with confidence.
[30:15] A differentiator in action – Nils gives an example of turning platforms into revenue engines.
[34:41] “Your obvious is your art” – Why what comes naturally may be your biggest edge.

Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways
[35:03] Key lessons – Differentiators, storytelling, research, and mindset for job hunting.
[41:30] Where to find Nils – How listeners can connect for resume help.
[43:02] Wrap up – Closing thoughts and sign-off.

Help keep the Product Porch lights on by giving at Patreon.com/TheProductPorch.

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Ever get told to “focus on outcomes, not outputs”... and then left with absolutely no clue what to do next?

You’re not alone. Too many product thought leaders drop this phrase like it’s gospel, but rarely explain how to apply it. It’s a slogan, not advice, and it leaves real product managers stuck.

This episode is the antidote. We break down what “outcomes over outputs” actually means, how to tell if your org is too focused on shipping, and what practical steps you can take to drive real results. We even play a game to help you build the muscle of spotting outcomes in the wild.

If you’ve ever rolled your eyes at another vague declaration from a product influencer, get ready to fight back. Expect practical advice, real talk, and a few sharp takes on how to translate theory into results that actually get you noticed.

For a conversation on how you can make outcomes work for you, pull up a chair on the porch.

Introduction and Welcome Back Joe
[00:45] Joe returns – Joe Ghali rejoins the podcast after a brief hiatus and kicks off the episode with the theme of focusing on outcomes over outputs.

Understanding Outcomes vs. Outputs
[01:45] Defining the terms – A clear breakdown of what we mean by "outcomes" and "outputs," and why the difference matters.

Benefits of Focusing on Outcomes
[04:00] Customer-first mindset – How outcome thinking leads to better user retention and improved experience.
[06:30] Product Manager value – Outcomes help PMs level up by connecting their work to real impact and demonstrating strategic value.

What Is “Outcomes Over Outputs”?
[07:05] It’s a mindset – A principle, not a checklist.
[08:00] Draw the line – If you can connect what you do to business outcomes, you instantly become more valuable to the organization.

Game Time: Todd Tries to Stump Joe and Ryan
[09:40] Is that an outcome? – Todd tosses a curveball: “I want to increase my batting average.” The crew debates if it's an outcome or an output.
[10:40] Not all outcomes are equal – Outcomes are everywhere; it’s our job to find the right ones to influence.
[11:40] Prioritize outcomes, not features – A nuanced but critical shift in how product leaders think and operate.

Product Outcomes vs. Business Outcomes
[14:36] Know the difference – Ryan breaks it down: product outcomes = customer impact, business outcomes = company impact.
[15:42] Shared ownership – Everyone on the product team owns outcomes, not just the PM.

Signs You’re Too Output-Focused
[16:00] Champagne problems – If launch day is your high point, you're likely too output-focused.
[19:15] The reality check – When performance reviews are tied to deadlines, how do we shift toward outcomes anyway?

Ryan’s Outcome Maturity Model
[20:00] Outcome maturity – Ryan walks us through how organizations evolve in their outcome thinking.
[21:45] Moving forward – Tips for how teams can start becoming more outcome-focused.
[23:15] Vacation mode – Joe shares a relatable example of outcome-thinking… while planning a family vacation.

Outcome or Output? Game Show Edition
[25:50] Salesforce integration – Sales says we're losing deals. Why that doesn’t mean you need a Salesforce integration.
[27:00] Deadline drama – Leadership pushes for a Q3 launch. Ryan explains why that’s an output, not an outcome.
[28:31] Support ticket drop – Reducing tickets to improve customer experience? Joe makes the case for outcome.
[30:30] App store blues – Fixing reviews to save your rep. Ryan says hold up—it’s an output without deeper insight.

Getting Started with Outcomes
[34:30] Joe’s advice – Understand the “as-is” before you build the “to-be.” (Shoutout to Laura from Kimberly-Clark!)
[35:35] Todd’s advice – Start by mastering the art of asking “why.”

Key Takeaways and Closing Thoughts
[39:08] Ryan – Don’t be intimidated. Use your 1:1s to talk about outcomes instead of project status.
[39:40] Joe – Want to become more outcome-focused? Ask: “What are our customers' goals and pain points?”
[40:15] Todd – Don’t let outcomes become theoretical. The magic is in attaching them to your product, measuring them, and taking your time. That’s why so many OKRs fall short—don’t rush it.

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