I have long wanted to meet John McWhorter. He’s an extremely well-known public intellectual and opinion leader who, in my opinion, always talks sense. I have this rather eccentric idea that before becoming a public intellectual, you need to earn your credentials by having something important and interesting to be intellectual about, and John McWhorter qualifies in a big way. He is a world authority on linguistics, the study of the extraordinary phenomenon of human language, which I think is one of the most important and interesting subjects out there. We both spoke at the Dissident Dialogues conference in New York this year, and I seized the opportunity to invite him onto The Poetry of Reality. I was delighted and honored when he accepted. I began by asking him about linguistics, including the vexed question of the origin of language. Only later did we move on to his more controversial book, a book that I strongly recommend, “Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America.”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a hero, a staunch fighter against the violent intolerance and bossy control freakery of Islamism. She is also a personal friend of whom I am very fond. When she recently announced her conversion to Christianity, I assumed that she must be no more than a political Christian, regarding Christianity as a bulwark against Islam. I have some sympathy with the view that if you must have a religion at all, Christianity is hugely better than the leading alternative. In Hilaire Belloc’s words, “Always keep a-hold of Nurse for fear of finding something worse.”

I agreed to have a public conversation with her in New York, in which I was all prepared to emphasize the distinction between a political Christian and a true believing Christian, who actually thinks Jesus was born of a virgin and rose from the dead. I think the distinction is a really important one. I don’t think a political Christian is a real Christian, any more than the kind of cultural Christian I am myself.

When we met on the stage at the Dissident Dialogues meeting in New York, I was wrongfooted when Ayaan began with a personal statement which seemed to suggest that she really is a believing Christian, not just a political Christian. Well, her form of words was “I choose to believe.” I’m not sure what to make of that. Anyways, see what you think; here is the recording of our New York meeting.

(This is part 2 of Richard's interview with Alister McGrath.)

I interviewed Alister McGrath for my Channel 4 documentary, Root of All Evil. He is a theologian, a nice enough fellow, but I wouldn't go out of your way to listen to this interview unless it's to remind yourself what an empty, vacuous, non-subject theology is.