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In this episode of That Change Show, Jason sits down with Don Gray for a deep dive into the realities of change management—beyond frameworks, buzzwords, and rigid processes. They explore why change is messy, how emotions and values shape resistance, and why organizations often focus on the wrong levers when trying to transform.

Drawing from personal experiences, the Satir Change Model, and insights from complex systems thinking, Jason and Don challenge the traditional right-hand-side approach to change (processes & tools) and emphasize the often-overlooked left-hand-side (culture, strategy, and human dynamics).

Along the way, they revisit stories from the Aye Conference, Agile 2012, and Problem Solving Leadership (PSL) workshops, discussing how adaptive thinking, small shifts, and informal change agents can lead to meaningful transformation.

What You’ll Learn:

✅ Why organizations resist change—and why that’s normal
✅ The butterfly effect of small shifts in complex systems
✅ How patterns form, evolve, and disrupt change efforts
✅ The power of timing, emotions, and informal change agents
✅ Why solving problems for people actually makes things worse

🎧 Listen now to rethink how you approach change!

Watch on Youtube

Show Notes and Links

REITH LECTURES 1970: Change and Industrial Society: https://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/radio4/transcripts/1970_reith2.pdf

Don's contact information

website: donaldegray.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldegray/
Mastodon: @donaldegray@hachyderm.io

Congruent Change information

website: congruentchange.com
LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/congruent-change/
Mastodon: @congruentchange@sw-development-is.social

Don's Change Mind Map: https://www.congruentchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Change.pdf

Problem-solving Leadership information

web url: https://www.congruentchange.com/problem-solving-leadership/
registration request at the bottom

details for the March workshop ...
When: March 20 - April 4, 2025
Where: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Fee: $2995

Jerry Weinberg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Weinberg

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Join us for an enlightening conversation as esteemed facilitator Donna Jones ( https://www.dawnajones.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dawnahjones/) guides us through the complexities of systems thinking in organizational contexts. With a rich backdrop of experience and a reflective nod to our meeting in Estonia 12 years ago, Donna offers profound insights into how organizational systems can influence behavior. We discuss the necessity of adaptability over rigid absolutes and explore how stepping back, much like the fluid movements of sandpipers, can help leaders reassess strategies to foster healthy and responsive systems.

We also tackle the often-illusory world of "change theater" in organizations, where superficial transformations hide deeper issues. Using real-life examples, we illuminate the critical role of sensing and recognizing underlying signals to promote genuine change rather than mere performance. By identifying incongruencies and trust issues, change agents can safely navigate organizational dynamics, leading to meaningful transformation. Our discussion underscores the importance of understanding deep-seated organizational patterns to foster authentic progress.

Finally, we delve into the intricacies of leadership communication, offering practical techniques for conducting difficult conversations with leaders. From changing the discussion venue to crafting engagement agreements that set clear expectations, we explore ways to foster open and honest interactions. The episode concludes by highlighting the potential of blending diverse generational thinking styles to create vibrant, adaptable workplaces. Embracing agile approaches and non-linear thinkers, we encourage organizations to cultivate cultures that value curiosity and adaptability, ensuring a dynamic and inclusive environment for all.

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Prefer the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAiMBgSByBQ

Can you transform the chaos of change into an opportunity for growth? Join me, Jason Little, as we tackle the evolving landscape of change management with innovative strategies. Our latest episode promises a fresh perspective, moving beyond the traditional and embracing a sensemaking approach that balances both exploration and action. Discover how to leverage the "last responsible moment" to make crucial decisions and the power of running experiments to foster learning. We shed light on how AI tools can streamline processes and enhance engagement, ensuring that your change initiatives are not only visible but highly effective.

Explore the art of building trust and co-creation in organizational change, with stories of successful transformations that prioritize meaningful dialogue over mere communication. Uncover the evolving role of change managers, akin to full-stack developers, who engage leaders in co-creation rather than imposing preset strategies. We'll navigate the complexities of structural and strategic changes, highlighting the five levers of organizational change. Wrapping up with a creative twist, discover how Lego Serious Play isn't just child's play but an impactful tool for tackling complex problems, fostering exploration, and driving meaningful change. Join us as we transform the way change is managed, one innovative approach at a time.

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Video version: https://youtu.be/g4vNeWW0EbQ

Can Agile methodologies still deliver on their promises, or have they become victims of their own success? Discover the answer in our latest episode of "That Change Show" as we chat with Agile experts John Tanner, CEO of C4G Enterprises, and Quinton Cortell, founder of FAST Agile. With host Jason guiding the conversation, we explore Agile's journey from its grassroots beginnings to its current state, and whether it's time to return to its foundational principles. John shares his impressive career path from developer to an influential strategist in Agile transformations, while Quinton discusses his transformation from a skeptic to an advocate, leading to the creation of his Fluid Adaptive Scaling Technology.

Get ready to hear stories that illustrate the genuine impact of Agile on software development and team dynamics. We recount the early days when Agile was shared organically before formal certifications entered the scene. Learn how methodologies like XP, Scrum, and Kanban revolutionized processes and improved morale, and debate whether commercialization has dulled Agile's edge. Through personal anecdotes, our guests highlight how embracing Agile practices led to significant positive outcomes, creating more efficient and happier teams.

But it's not all smooth sailing. We tackle the misuse of Agile that has led to backlash, overwork, and resentment in many organizations. The episode also examines the challenge of measuring the impact of Agile coaches and the consequences of failing to do so. As we navigate the complexities of Agile in large enterprises, we discuss why tech giants like Amazon, Apple, and Google might be absent from Agile conferences and what that means for the future of the methodology. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation on reframing Agile measurement, embracing change, and staying true to Agile principles amidst evolving landscapes.

00:00 - today’s show

00:43 - intro to John Tanner

01:28 - intro Quinton Quartel

03:39 - intro to Jason

05:10 - Is agile dead?

05:53 - intro to Chris

07:27 - how has agile evolved?

15:14 - what’s the real problem?

23:45 - why are people saying agile is dead?

42:00 - bad system entry?

49:40 - do some orgs actually need it?

51:30 - Agile 2024 sessions

63:00 - wrap-up

They Write the Right Stuff

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3ownu8zlfbk7zbbjpqm3t/They-Write-the-Right-Stuff.pdf?rlkey=qlx432fhqfeg1w76883jjm4gx&e=2

John Tanner

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tannerjs/

CEO & Chief Strategist @ C4G Enterprises

Chris Shinkle

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisshinkle/

Director of Innovation at SEP

Quinton Quartel

https://www.linkedin.com/in/quintonquartel/

Founder of FAST

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/8FuaOqmCkMg

Imagine a world where AI transforms how we approach organizational change management. Join us as we chat with Tapio Kumalainen, leader of HowSpace's North American operations, about the intriguing journey of HowSpace. From its roots as a human-centric consulting firm in Finland to an AI-powered change management platform, HowSpace has been integrating AI tools since 2015. Tapio delves into how AI can enhance decision-making by processing vast data sets, potentially rendering traditional methods like change readiness surveys obsolete. We also explore the ethical considerations, emphasizing transparency and addressing the challenges of bias.

One of the core aspects we discuss is the critical role of feedback and transparency during organizational change. Tapio shares valuable insights on the flexibility and significance of anonymity in feedback systems, influenced by cultural contexts and the nature of the questions asked. Tracking sentiment over time emerges as a powerful tool to reveal patterns and guide organizations through changes more effectively. We also tackle potential apprehensions leaders might have about unfiltered feedback and the advantages that transparency brings, along with how different cultural norms impact feedback within multinational corporations.

Looking ahead, Tapio and I discuss the future of AI in change management and the transformative possibilities it holds. From efficiency gains to streamlining activities and enhancing agility, AI promises to revolutionize the field. We highlight the rapid pace of AI development and the exciting innovation on the horizon, despite varied human acceptance rates. Practical applications such as custom GPTs and tools for managing change experiments are examined, showcasing how non-technical users can harness AI platforms. Finally, we touch on productivity and sustainability concerns, offering practical advice for AI skeptics and addressing environmental impacts related to AI power consumption. Tune in to grasp the full spectrum of AI's potential in reshaping change management!

Howspace: https://howspace.com/

Tapio Kymalainen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tapiokymalainen/

Lean Change AI: https://leanchange.org/ai

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Unlock the secrets to thriving in a constant state of change with Justin Belaski, the maestro of Lean Change from Idea Leap. In our latest episode, we chart Justin's remarkable journey from retail operations to revolutionizing change management. His story is not just about professional transformation but an intricate dance with innovation that redefines the art of adaptability in business. Join us as we discuss the power of storytelling in career transitions and the practical, day-to-day impact of Lean Change methodologies.

This conversation takes us through the trenches of change agility, where the 'three Ms'—minimizing time to pivot, learning, and action—become your best allies. Prepare to shift from exhaustive planning to responsive planning, and learn how to create moments of realization that align teams and stoke collaboration. Justin's insights underscore the personal growth that comes from embracing the unpredictability of change initiatives, which not only fuels the evolution of change management but also rekindles our passion for the work we do.

Wrapping up, we explore how Idea Leap is mastering the intricate relationship between technology and business growth, offering a glimpse into the future of organizational transformations. Discover how Justin and his team navigate innovation, and take away valuable lessons on integrating technology to meet business objectives. For more on Idea Leap's initiatives and connecting with Justin, check out the essential links we've included just below. So grateful to have had this enriching dialogue; it's conversations like these that deepen our understanding of the ever-fluid world of change management. Thanks for listening, and we hope you've gained as much from this episode as we have.

Find more about Justin here:

https://idealeap.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/idealeap/

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Embark on an enlightening journey with Lauri Paloheimo of Pandatron as we scrutinize the fascinating convergence of AI, coaching, and change management. Lauri guides us through the transformative landscape of coaching evolution, from primitive chat-based interactions to the cutting-edge AI capable of emulating empathetic responses within the corporate labyrinth. With a profound background in philosophy and futures thinking, Lauri illuminates the critical role of forward-thinking in crafting AI tools designed to tackle the unpredictable hurdles of our era.

As we navigate the promising future of organizational AI, we uncover its potential in reshaping traditional structures, especially during upheavals. The discussion unravels the intricate notion of organizational fractals and how AI's adeptness in dissecting complex qualitative data can bring systemic issues to light. We probe into the shift towards decentralized models and contemplate the ethical implications for organizations venturing into AI adoption, underscoring a vision of a cautiously optimistic future wherein technology serves as a beacon for organizational progress.

Finally, we explore the role of AI in mediating cultural nuances, acting as a crucible where leadership presumptions are tested, and diverse global teams find common ground. Lauri's expertise in blending Japanese and Western coaching methodologies provides a captivating lens through which AI's impact on cultural identities is examined. We conclude with a reflection on AI's double-edged sword – the potential to homogenize yet also enrich cultural practices – inviting listeners to join the vanguard of change managers pioneering at this groundbreaking crossroads of AI, culture, and change.

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube

Have ideas for the show? Liked a topic? Let us know!

Discover how to tap into the emotional pulse of your audience using AI-driven sentiment analysis, a topic we tackle with fervor as Phoebe from Australia joins the conversation. We're not just scratching the surface of customer feedback and employee opinions; we're delving deep into the emotional spectrum that can revolutionize how businesses interpret complex data. Imagine having the ability to discern intricate emotional patterns and leverage this information for impactful change management and strategic decision-making—this episode promises to unlock that potential.

We take you through a journey of understanding, where sentiment analysis is not merely a tool but a gateway to the heart of your organization's most pressing concerns. From the varying attitudes of professionals across different experience levels to the influence of community backgrounds on perceptions, we unpack how sentiment polarity and subjectivity scores can be a game-changer. Listen as we reveal how an analysis refined by AI can guide not only organizational transformations but also shape the readiness for change, providing invaluable insights that are tailor-made to suit the nuanced needs of your team and clientele.

https://leanchange.org/ai

Jason Little is an internationally acclaimed speaker and author of Lean Change Management, Change Agility and Agile Transformation: 4 Steps to Organizational Transformation. That Change Show is a live show where the topics are inspired by Lean Change workshops and lean coffee sessions from around the world. Video versions on Youtube