When a first-time meeting between a fearless life-explorer and a seasoned marketing strategist turns into a conversation, it’s never just small talk — it’s an unfiltered deep dive into conviction, courage, and the messy business of walking a path you can’t quite see until you’ve lived it. In this episode of Clean Your Toilet, Phoebe and Will meet for the very first time — ten minutes before hitting record — and jump straight into what it really means to live and work off the beaten path.

Most people think clarity comes first, then action. Phoebe’s life is proof that sometimes you act first — and the clarity comes later. From rejecting the “safe” route of junior college for a more self-discovering polytechnic education, to choosing a scrappy startup over a dream-brand corporate gig, she has repeatedly chosen growth over guarantees. Her philosophy? Let your heart lead and let your mind catch up.

It’s a mindset that took years to cultivate. Growing up as a self-described people pleaser, Phoebe often deferred to others’ opinions — until she realised that external validation is a shaky foundation for a fulfilling life. The turning point? A week-long yoga and meditation retreat in Cambodia that reawakened her inner joy and reminded her of a childlike curiosity she had almost lost to “adulting.” That clarity sparked a radical decision: to leave a stable role in sales and customer success to embrace uncertainty, trusting it would lead somewhere truer.

One of those unexpected turns was publishing her own poetry and prose book — now sitting on Kinokuniya’s shelves — alongside training in healing modalities like breathwork and Akashic records. Another was shaving her waist-length hair for Hair for Hope, a personal act of non-attachment that also challenged societal ideas of beauty. “When I come from a space of inner conviction,” she says, “there’s no room for challenge — I see it through.”

Will, ever the challenger, probes Phoebe’s thinking on intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, the myths of entrepreneurship, and why not every bout of dissatisfaction means you should quit your job. Together, they explore the tension between trusting your gut and rationalising it, between holding core values and turning them into actionable verbs, between keeping life “safe” and letting a little bit of crazy seep out.

Key questions surface:

- How do you know if you’re walking *your* path, not one shaped by conditioning?

- When is discomfort a sign to push forward — and when is it a cue to pause?

- What anchors you when your choices make sense to no one but you?

Phoebe’s anchors are authenticity and courage — but lived as actions, not just words. Staying true through the noise. Choosing the braver option when fear whispers “play small.” And perhaps most importantly, remembering to find joy in the mess.

If you’ve ever:

- Felt pulled towards something without being able to explain why

- Wondered if stability is costing you growth

- Wanted to live by your own definitions, even when they defy expectations

…this episode is your permission slip to act before you have the map, to trust the steps you can’t yet see, and to clean out the clutter of shoulds so you can make space for what actually matters.

🧼 Your conviction is the clean water.

🚽 Fear of judgment is the drain.

💩 Old conditioning and people-pleasing? That’s the clog.

Flush it. Live it. And let your heart lead you somewhere your head hasn’t yet imagined.