In this inspiring instalment of Never the Same, host Dr Tony Pisani welcomes Professor Pat Dudgeon, the first Aboriginal psychologist in Australia and a global voice for First Nations mental health.

Pat describes how confronting the racism in the system sparked her mission to “decolonise” psychology and build a new framework called Social and Emotional Wellbeing, a model that places self, family, community, culture, and Country at the centre of healing.

Across the episode, Pat and Tony revisit moments such as the Ways Forward national report, discuss why Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander suicide demands distinct responses, and celebrate community-led successes, from Indigenous Rangers caring for land to universities rewriting psychology curricula.

Key Points

• Pat’s path to becoming the first Aboriginal psychologist
• Origins and pillars of the SEWB paradigm
• The Ways Forward report and Boat Shed Declaration
• Distinct drivers of Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander suicide
• Success stories: Indigenous Rangers, psychology curriculum reform
• The role of climate action and caring for Country

Resources Mentioned

• Ways Forward: National Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander Mental Health Policy Report
• SEWB model diagram & “Working Together” chapter
• Dance of Life wellbeing model by Prof Helen Milroy
• Sweetgrass Research Method — Dr Mark Standing Eagle Baez
• Indigenous Rangers Program (Australia)

Professor Pat Dudgeon is a Bardi woman from the Kimberley and Australia’s first Aboriginal psychologist. She co-chairs the Centre of Best Practice in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention and advocates for culturally informed mental-health systems worldwide.

Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.

Alan Woodward has spent decades strengthening crisis services around the world — from answering calls on the Lifeline crisis line to advising government leaders and building new programs. In this episode, Alan reflects on what it takes to face hard moments, how crisis services save lives, and why kindness (to others and ourselves) matters more than we realise.

Together, we explore the lessons Alan learned growing up in a coastal city in Australia, navigating career changes, managing anxiety, and staying committed to making the world better.

Guest:
Alan Woodward is a global leader in crisis support and suicide prevention. His work spans decades of service as a researcher, advocate, and advisor to governments and organisations, with deep roots in community-based care.

Host:
Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.

Resources and References Mentioned:

• Madelyn Gould, Columbia University – suicide prevention research.
• Consensus Statement on Crisis Support from international crisis line networks
• International Association for Suicide Prevention – work on decriminalisation of suicide
• Lifeline International – Alan’s current organisation
• Ghana's Decriminalisation of Suicide – paper
• Australia’s National Suicide Prevention Strategy – released this year
• Professor Rory O’Connor – theory of suicide and the role of entrapment
• Royal Commission into Robodebt (Australia) – Submission from Suicide Prevention Australia

Nicole Doyley’s life and writing centre on one key question: What about the children?

In this episode, Nicole reflects on growing up in a biracial family, her evolving racial identity, and the parenting values she developed as a result. She discusses transracial adoption, the impact of Black History Month, how culture shapes resilience, and why awareness and humility are essential for any caregiver.

Nicole shares her family’s story, from her parents’ marriage in the 1960s (when their marriage was still illegal in some states) to her own cross-cultural marriage to a Jamaican man, and how these experiences shaped her understanding of race, belonging, and what it means to be “seen.”

Guest: Nicole Doyley is an author and podcast host whose latest book, What About the Children? Five Values for Multiracial Families draws from her personal and professional experiences. Nicole grew up in a biracial family, served as a campus pastor, and now helps parents and communities navigate race, identity, and parenting with honesty and cultural awareness.

Host: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.

Resources and References:

• Nicole Doyley – What About the Children? Five Values for Multiracial Families
• Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie – The Danger of a Single Story
• The Mis-Education of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson
• Lecrae – story of racial identity, healing, and therapy
• U.S. Census – changes to allow multiple racial identities (2000)
• Nicole's podcast – First a Man: growing up in a Black nation (featuring her husband Marvin)