“In the next 25 years, the world will need more copper than in all of human history.”

Amendment - I said 3.2 billion kg of copper in opening question, I should have said 320 million kg.

In this episode, journalist and author Vince Beiser returns to the podcast to discuss his book Power Metal, a sobering look at the metals that make modern civilization possible — and the extraordinary cost of extracting them.

We cover the story of copper — the wire of empire. Beiser reveals why humanity will need more copper in the next 25 years than we’ve used in all of history, and how that quest is reshaping geopolitics, the environment, and our very ideas of progress. From Chile’s drought-stricken Atacama mines to the e-waste yards of Lagos, Nigeria, we follow the real people and places behind our “clean-energy” future — and the dirty truths that power it.

We also unpack the rise of deep-sea mining, the billionaires behind it, and the tensions between state power, corporate ambition, and the planet’s limits. Along the way we meet Robert Friedland, Gerard Barron, Dan Gertler, and a cast of characters who prove that the world still runs on digging — and that the future will too.

If you liked The World in a Grain or stories about how our material world shapes our moral one, this conversation will hit home.

Topics: Resource wars, clean-tech paradox, deep-sea mining, copper shortage, China’s industrial strategy, EV economics, and how to reduce demand without going backwards.
Guest: Vince Beiser - author of Power Metal and The World in a Grain
Subscribe to his newsletter Power Metal Substack

The World In A Grain (Vince's First Appearance on The Curious Worldview in 2021) - https://open.spotify.com/episode/7rf8QskOPtzvp2g8tm3lMk?si=zxA1ycpKRViBFt5S3XTCLg

Timestamps.

00:00 – Intro: Vince Beiser & Power Metal
02:00 – Chile’s Copper Boom & the Atacama Water Crisis
07:00 – Congo’s Cobalt, U.S. Retreat, and Copper Geography
10:00 – The No-Free-Lunch of the Green Transition
12:30 – Lagos E-Waste Recyclers & the Hidden Cost of Recycling
19:10 – Deep-Sea Mining and the Billionaires Behind It
23:00 – The UN vs Trump: Who Owns the Ocean Floor?
33:00 – Robert Friedland, Steve Jobs & Congo’s Mining Empire
41:00 – Corruption, Crony Capitalism & Dan Gertler
47:00 – Commodity Volatility and State Intervention
52:00 – China’s Industrial Patience vs Western Myopia
55:00 – Rethinking Cars, Cities & Demand Reduction
58:00 – The Future of Resources — and Civilization Itself

Theoretical physicist and bestselling author Lawrence Krauss (A Universe from Nothing, The Known Unknowns) explores the biggest questions we can ask:
How did the universe begin? Why is there something rather than nothing? What is consciousness? And what will remain when every star has burned out?

Krauss moves seamlessly from the hard science of the Big Bang and dark energy to existential philosophy, arguing that our cosmic insignificance is precisely what makes life meaningful.

Along the way he shares personal stories—mentorship from Nobel laureates, serendipitous discoveries, his friendship with Christopher Hitchens—and explains how curiosity and rigorous science drive human progress.

🪐 What We Cover

• 0:00 Intro & Lawrence Krauss’s background
• 1:40 Why cosmic insignificance makes life precious
• 5:45 Serendipity, creativity & the joy of discovery
• 13:00 Australia stories & reflections on public science
• 16:20 Science as culture & the power of the scientific method
• 24:30 Evidence for the Big Bang and the age of the universe (~13.8B years)
• 29:15 How astronomers measure cosmic acceleration & dark energy
• 36:00 The universe’s fate: heat death, black holes & ultimate nothingness
• 40:45 Consciousness and the mystery of self-aware stardust
• 44:40 Memories of Christopher Hitchens and Hitch’s final quip

💡 Key Ideas & Quotes

• “We make our own meaning. The universe doesn’t care—and that’s liberating.”
• “Science is not just results; it’s the process of questioning and testing.”
• “Rare things happen all the time in a big, old universe.”
• Christopher Hitchens on existence: “Why is there something rather than nothing? Just wait... it won’t be for long.”

📚 A Selection Of Books by Lawrence Krauss

• A Universe from Nothing
• The Known Unknowns
• The Physics of Star Trek
  
  

Subscribe to Chris Arnade's Substack - https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/

Who is Chris Arnade!

He started as a physicist, earning a PHD from Johns Hopkins and then took to Wall St spending two decades on an elite trading desk at CitiGroup before disillusioning his well dressed allies to engage in the photography, walking and writing of the great and forgotten cities of this world.

He is a best selling author, but as well… a best subscribed substacker!

'Chris Arnade Walks The World' is the publications name…

And in it, Chris lives up to the title.

Japan, Europe, China, Australia, The Faroe Islands, Canada, the expansive US of A, Turkey, Korea, Indonesia even Uzbekistan (which gets a special mention in this podcast). Cities within all of these great nations and many more, Chris has trod and documented.

His format is slow and empathetic. Chris will embark on several 20-30km journeys at his location, take photos and then report on his walk.

I can’t remember how long I’ve been subscribed, although it feels like years, but the other day I woke up to an email which detailed Chris’s initial impressions of Sydney! I replied to the email right away, and just a few hours later was guiding him along the Malabar to Bondi trail. Steve and I - guiding Chris from the area I grew up to the most iconic beach in Australia.

That was a special serendipity which came out of no-where and furthermore, led to this podcast today...

• 00:00 Introduction to Chris Arnade — physicist, Wall Street trader, turned global walker/writer.
• 02:00 First impressions of Sydney — “child of LA and London,” with beaches, pubs, suburbs, and good living.

Sydney Observations

• 03:40 Sydney’s trains: efficient, sprawling, but designed to avoid beaches.
• 06:00 Sydney friendliness vs. UK cynicism — “Australians are like puppy dogs, eager to please.”
• 09:30 Suburbs as “democratized manors,” good life for the average person, housing affordability issues.
• 13:00 Housing supply constraints, coastline beauty, and why Sydney isn’t as bad as people think.

Walking & Method

• 16:30 From physics & Wall Street to walking: walks as stress relief, learning, meditation.
• 20:30 Spreadsheet brain → toy models → refining worldview through walking.
• 22:30 Cities that defied expectations: Tashkent & Jakarta.

Global Perspectives

• 25:30 Africa’s challenges: Nigeria & Dakar as examples of dysfunction despite resources.
• 29:00 Australia’s weak ties with Indonesia, lack of Indonesians in Sydney, food culture, overlapping economic models.
• 33:30 Chinese-Indonesian business dominance — parallels to Jews, Lebanese, minorities elsewhere.
• 36:00 High-trust vs. low-trust societies: Japan as the archetype.

Culture & Writing

• 41:30 Why he avoids fame, prefers anonymity, but respects subscribers deeply.
• 44:00 Pressure to deliver as a Substack writer — treating it like a job.
• 47:00 Writing inspiration, uninspired cities (Bangkok), and the challenges of always producing.
• 53:00 Strong opinions drive traffic

Dignity & Underclass

• 55:00 “Dignity” project in the US — underclass and addiction.

Personal Life

• 56:20 Family and frugality
• 58:50 Why he doesn’t read other travel writers

Philosophy & Serendipity

• 01:04:50 Serendipity? “I don’t believe in coincidence.”
• 01:07:00 Country he’s most bullish on
• 01:09:00 Next destinations