Charlie Riley welcomes Matthew Sciannella, Senior Director of Demand Gen at Refine Labs, for a refreshingly sharp conversation on why out-of-home advertising is making a serious comeback.

They explore why now is the time to zag instead of zig, how SaaS brands often miss the mark by being too clever, and what B2B marketers can learn from law firms and jewellers. Matt shares what he sees while driving from Sacramento to San Francisco—billboards that hit, and ones that absolutely don’t.

He also breaks down why performance marketing can’t replace brand marketing, what makes a campaign stick, and how creative consistency can quietly outperform cleverness. This one is packed with real talk, real-world examples, and a no-fluff perspective on what actually works today.

Matthew Sciannella is the Senior Director of Demand Generation at Refine Labs, where he helps B2B SaaS brands elevate their paid media strategy beyond just digital. With a strong focus on demand, content, and product, Matt brings a fresh lens to traditional marketing channels like out-of-home, CTV, and podcasts—especially when the rest of the market zigs.

• Why out-of-home is “the ultimate zag” when everyone else is zigging
• The “single image ad” advantage that billboards still own
• How brand consistency between creative, website, and placements builds trust
• A candid critique of SaaS billboards vs. standout law firm ads
• The problem with AI messaging that sounds like everyone else
• Lessons from Incident.io’s OOH campaign and how it sparked brand lift
• Why performance marketing is transactional—and brand is durable
• The difference between clever and clear messaging in outdoor creative
• Why measuring out-of-home is like brand: a long-term play
• How agencies can advise clients beyond the Google + LinkedIn duopoly

• Incident.io
• “I Hate Steven Singer” billboards
• Drake the Lawyer
• Monday.com
• HeyGen
• n8n
• Clay
• Ro

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

What happens when high-growth startups hit the ceiling with digital? They turn to the physical world. In this episode, Greg Wise and Charlie Riley sit down with Mike Gunderson, founder of Gundir and PostReminder, to explore why more marketers are rediscovering direct mail.

Mike shares how he grew his agency from solo consultancy to a 30-person team working with some of the biggest consumer and B2B brands in the U.S. He explains how offline tactics like direct mail and out-of-home aren't legacy channels—they’re precision tools for real engagement. With a focus on targeting, testing, and marrying physical formats with digital follow-ups, Mike lays out a clear path for making these so-called “old school” tactics work smarter, not louder.

👤 Guest Bio

• Mike Gunderson is the founder of Gundir (formerly Gunderson Direct), a direct marketing agency that helps B2B and consumer brands scale through targeted direct mail. He also founded PostReminder, a tool that connects physical advertising moments—like mail and billboards—to digital reminders that drive action when the time is right.

📌 What We Cover

• Why high-growth startups are turning to real-world marketing when digital plateaus
• How direct mail builds brand awareness—even if it’s tossed
• The targeting capabilities that make modern mail campaigns precise and measurable
• Lessons from working with brands like Square and SoFi on direct mail
• Why scale matters: 5,000 pieces won’t cut it—think 150,000 to 500,000
• How direct mail and out-of-home can work together in an ABM strategy
• Mike’s advice for dipping your toe in direct mail with retargeting postcards
• How attribution works—and doesn’t work—when it comes to physical media
• Why the physical world isn’t going anywhere, and why that's a good thing

🔗 Resources Mentioned

• Gundir.com – Download the 2025 Direct Mail Best Practices Book
• PostReminder.com – Set digital reminders from physical ads
• Companies mentioned: Square, SoFi, Meta
• Scrappy ABM Podcast

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.

Marketing leaders today are facing rising CAC, shrinking budgets, and pressure to prove short-term results. In this episode, host Charlie Riley and co-host Greg Wise sit down with Jonathan Bland, co-founder of Omni Lab Consulting, to break down what’s keeping B2B SaaS marketers up at night. From the dangers of short-termism to why only 5% of your buyers are actually in-market, Jonathan shares how paid media strategies must evolve — and why performance-only mindsets are no longer enough. You’ll also hear candid takes on internal marketing, the role of trust, and what brand really means when budgets are tight.

Jonathan Bland is the co-founder of Omni Lab Consulting, a demand gen agency focused exclusively on paid media for B2B SaaS brands. For the past four years, Jonathan and his team have specialized in acquisition, acceleration, and awareness campaigns across channels like Google Ads, LinkedIn, and YouTube. Based in DC, Jonathan is also a regular presence at events and on LinkedIn, where he shares honest takes on what’s working — and what’s not — in SaaS marketing today.

• The rising pressure on marketers to prove short-term pipeline at the expense of brand
• Why third-party intent data is expensive and often misses the majority of out-of-market buyers
• How the 95/5 heuristic helps frame long-term thinking and buyer timing
• The return of brand marketing and why performance fatigue is setting in
• CAC trends, attribution bias, and the challenge of proving untrackable influence
• Internal marketing: assessing how your board, product, and sales team define “brand”
• Why trust-building content outperforms demo CTAs — even in performance channels
• Tactical brand plays from Omni Lab, including a new actor-led campaign filmed in Toronto
• Thoughts on out-of-home, LinkedIn, Google, and understanding the intent of the channel

• Berg-Bass Institute (referenced: 95/5 rule)
• Winter (research on brand consideration)
• Luminous (brand campaign example)
• Turtle (interactive PDF campaign)
• Storylane and Exit Five (OOH example)

Low-Tech, High-Impact Account-Based Marketing

If you’re ready to trade expensive, tech-heavy account-based marketing for a repeatable, revenue-driving ABM program, check out Scrappy ABM. Led by a team of Scrappy ABM experts, they specialize in low-budget plays and programs that deliver high impact—no shiny tools required. Scrappy ABM has built account-based programs that have delivered millions in revenue, and you can build your first successful ABM program with their help.

Start with a pilot program or launch an account-based podcast. Learn more at scrappyabm.com. Let's get scrappy.