Under Review with Alex Su is a CLE series produced in partnership with Stanford Law School and PLI. This episode of Under Review examines the seismic changes reshaping the legal profession through three timely conversations.

In the first segment, Susan Robinson, Associate Dean for Career Services at Stanford Law School, unpacks the shifting landscape of on-campus interviewing (OCI) and legal recruiting. She explains how accelerated hiring timelines, earlier student decision-making, and increased specialization are transforming the law firm pipeline, while highlighting new opportunities for students and employers to adapt in a rapidly changing market.

The second segment features David Freeman Engstrom, Professor in Law and Co-Director of the Deborah L. Rhode Center on the Legal Profession, who explores the “managerial turn” in U.S. courts. Engstrom describes how rising caseloads, triage systems, non-judge decision-makers, and even algorithmic tools are reshaping judicial processes. He examines the tension between efficiency and legitimacy, and what these innovations mean for fairness, access to justice, and the role of courts in democratic life.

Finally, Mary Shen O’Carroll, Chief Community Officer at Ironclad and former Director of Legal Operations at Google, shares practical insights on leading organizational change within the legal profession. Drawing on her experience in law firms, tech, and legal operations, she discusses how to build credibility, navigate resistance, and leverage AI and new technologies to drive transformation. Her perspective underscores the cultural shifts required for firms and lawyers to thrive in an era of rapid disruption.

Connect/Links:

• Alex Su
• Adam Sterling
• Susan Robinson
• David Freeman Engstrom
• Mary Shen O'Carroll

Chapters

Chapter 1 [00:00:00 – 00:10:20]: The Unraveling of OCI
Adam Sterling interviews Susan Robinson about the shifting landscape of on-campus interviews—from accelerated hiring timelines and shrinking third-year markets to how students can adapt to stress and uncertainty in recruiting.

Chapter 2 [00:10:20 – 00:27:58]: The Rise of Managerial Courts
Professor David Freeman Engstrom explains how high-volume dockets are reshaping courts, the role of bureaucracies and non-judicial actors, and what these quiet transformations mean for access to justice.

Chapter 3 [00:27:58 – 00:33:17]: Transformation Agent in Big Law
Host Alex Su introduces Mary O’Carroll, tracing her career from Google Legal Ops and CLOC to her current role as COO at Goodwin. Mary discusses her approach to the firm as a "transformation agent."

Chapter 4 [00:33:17 – 00:38:24]: Winning Trust and Overcoming Resistance
Mary shares her philosophy on leading organizational change, emphasizing the need to build trust and deliver results efficiently, while offering guidance on how to navigate the inevitable pockets of resistance within any organization.

Chapter 5 [00:38:24 – 00:46:22]: AI and Legal Innovation
Mary and Alex discuss the tremendous pace of change driven by AI, why the legal industry is on the verge of massive disruption, and how lawyers can balance risk while experimenting with new tools.

Chapter 6 [00:46:22 – 00:50:53]: Leading by Example
Mary offers guidance for junior lawyers seeking to drive change and for leaders aiming to foster innovation, emphasizing the importance of leading by example, being flexible and agile, and adopting a growth mindset.