This interview was originally published on Audible.com.
Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.
Rachael Xerri: Hi, I'm Audible's Well-Being and Business Editor, Rachael Xerri. And today I'm here with Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter and bestselling author of and , Charles Duhigg, to talk about his latest listen, . Welcome, Charles.
Charles Duhigg: Thanks for having me.
RX: First of all, how are you today? How are you feeling?
CD: I'm good. I'm good. I'm in Santa Cruz, California, which is where I live. And it's a little bit after eight o'clock, and my kid got off to school without any major problems. So, it's a good day so far [laughs].
RX: I'm so glad to hear that. I know how difficult it can be to get kids off to school in the morning.
CD: Yes, yes. Sometimes there are some ups and downs there. But it all went well today.
RX: Well, that's great. Seems like you are ready to jump in. I'm in Brooklyn myself, so it's great that we get to connect like this. So, you've inspired millions to lead better lives through building habits, through other areas of self-development. What piqued your interest in communication?
CD: Well, there were two things that did. The first is that when I wrote The Power of Habit, I got a lot of emails from people saying, "You know, the lessons in the book have really helped me improve myself, but a lot of my success is dependent on other people. So, how do I deal with these other people in my life?" And of course the answer to that is communication, that the way that we interact with other people is usually through conversations.
And then there was this pattern that I fell into in my own life, which is that I would come home from work after a long day, and I would start telling my wife about my day and complaining about it and saying like, "My boss is a jerk, and my coworkers don't appreciate me." And then she very reasonably and rationally would offer advice like, "Why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other?" And instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get even more upset [laughs]. I would say like, "Why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be outraged on my behalf." And then she would get upset because I was yelling at her for no apparent reason. And I began to wonder, “What's going on here? Like, I'm a professional communicator and we've been married for a long time. Why do we keep having this problem?”
"Every discussion is made up of multiple kinds of conversations. And unless you're having the same kind of conversation as the other person at the same time, you can't really hear each other and you can't really connect."
And so I started calling up these experts and asking them, "What's going on?" And what they told me was, "We're living through this golden age of understanding communication for the first time." And they said, "The mistake that you're making is that you're assuming that a conversation is about one thing, about what your day is like. But actually, every discussion is made up of multiple kinds of conversations. And unless you're having the same kind of conversation as the other person at the same time, you can't really hear each other and you can't really connect."
RX: That's such a good point. You bring up talking to your wife and how troubling that is at times. I can totally relate. My partner and I get into all sorts of conversations and walk away feeling like, “Ugh, we didn't hear each other.” So, for a species with such advanced verbal abilities, we have complex body language, we sure seem to struggle. What is it about communicating that is just so challenging for us, do you think?
CD: Well, I think a lot of it goes back to this insight that there's these different kinds of conversations, right? When I came home from work, I was in an emotional mindset and I was having an emotional conversation. And my wife responded with advice, which is a practical conversation. And actually, those use different parts of our brains. So, the emotional portion of our brain is really in the mid- and lower part of the brain. Whereas when we're making plans or offering advice, we're using our prefrontal cortex, the part that's closer to our forehead.
And what we know is that when we communicate effectively, it's because our brains start to match up. In fact, this is known within neurology as neural entrainment, that our brains actually begin to look alike. But if we're using different parts of our brains, then we can't do that. We can't entrain. And as a result, it's really hard to hear each other. And I think that's one of the big issues. And one of the things that supercommunicators do so well is that they figure out how to match the other person and invite them to match themselves.
RX: Yeah, so “supercommunicator,” let's talk about what that is. How do we know when we're in the presence of someone who's a supercommunicator and what qualities make one so?
CD: Well, we all actually know supercommunicators, and sometimes we're supercommunicators ourselves in certain situations. So, if I was to ask you, if you had a really bad day and you wanted to call someone who would make you feel better, does the person you would call pop into your mind immediately?
RX: Oh, sure.
CD: Yeah. Who is it? Who is it for you?
RX: I mean, I would absolutely call my partner, like, no questions asked.
CD: Yeah. So, for you, your partner is a supercommunicator, and you're probably a supercommunicator back to them. And when you connect with each other when you have a conversation, it's really easy to align, to become entrained. Now, there are some people who can do this on a more consistent basis, people who can be supercommunicators almost any time they want to, can connect with almost anyone. And what we know about them is that they're not that different from everyone else, right? They're not particularly charismatic. They're not extroverts. They're just normal people who think just a half an inch deeper about conversation and communication. And they've learned a couple of habits that make them much better at it.
For instance, one thing that we know about supercommunicators is they ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. They tend to mirror your nonverbal expressions. Like, if you laugh, they'll laugh back. If you look concerned, they'll look concerned as well. And it's not like they're trying to manipulate you or they're doing it on purpose. It's just, it's become a habit at this point. There's a number of things that supercommunicators do that allow them to connect with almost anyone. And the most important is, though, that anyone can learn these skills. These are not inborn traits, these are not difficult things to do. They're things that anyone can do. And we can all become supercommunicators anytime we want to.
RX: Definitely. There was this one part of your book that really illustrates this idea that you're able build a supercommunicator really well. And it's an earlier chapter where you're talking about The Big Bang Theory and how the producers had this idea of creating a show about socially awkward geniuses. And they really had to think so intentionally about the building blocks of communication, like emotion, affect, speech. But they realized that they needed a character to sort of balance out these characters that were less adept at communication, and so they created Penny.
And I'm just so curious, how do you think this translates to the real world? We have people who maybe aren't as strong at communicating and then we have these strong communicators like Penny. Are they helping to bridge the gap for less socially adept folks?
CD: Thank you for mentioning that story because I love that story. Because The Big Bang Theory, when it first premiered, or their first pilot, was a total flop. Nobody liked the television show and they had to go back to the drawing board and redesign everything because, of course, as you pointed out, the comedy of the show is that the characters, the physicists, they are really awkward in conversation. They don't know how to express their emotions. And so the question is, how do you make it clear to the audience what people are feeling? And this gets back to those different kinds of conversations.
So, one of the things that researchers have told us is that most conversations fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're making plans or we're solving problems or giving advice. There's emotional conversations where I'm telling you how I feel, and I don't want you to solve my problem. I just want you to empathize. And then there's social conversations where we talk about how we relate to each other and relate to others and others relate to us. And for The Big Bang Theory, what the writers realized was that a lot of ways to show what kind of conversation was occurring could be done without having to use words to describe that conversation.
So, for instance, what they figured out is that if you had two people who were saying very different things but their nonverbal communication matched, they were speaking at the same energy levels, the same intensity—one of them was loud and so the other one was loud, or one of them was quiet and so the other one got quiet—as long as they matched each other, then you could figure out what kind of conversation they were having. You could figure out that they were connecting. Whereas if they had different levels of energy, if one of them laughed really big and another one kind of went ha-ha, like a little chuckle, or if one of them looked really sad and the other one kept trying to cheer them up, then you would know as the audience member that regardless of what they were saying, they weren't connecting with each other.
"The goal of a conversation is not to change someone's mind. It's not even to make sure that they know how you feel on a topic. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand each other."
And this is an important lesson for all of us, which is oftentimes when we're communicating with someone, we think about the words coming out of our mouth, but we don't think about how we're saying them. And how we say them indicates what kind of mood, mindset we're in. Laughter's a great example of this. About 80 percent of the time when you laugh in a conversation, it is not in response to anything funny, right? You laugh, rather, to show the person you want to connect with them. And when they laugh back in the same kind of energy that you do, they're showing you that they want to connect with you. And so the more we kind of just train ourselves to look for these clues about whether someone's trying to connect with us and to say, "I want to connect back," the more we become supercommunicators.
RX: That's so true. I don't know about you, but if you've ever been in a conversation where a person's just not matching your energy, you can feel it almost, right? It's almost intuitive.
CD: Immediately, right? And the problem is that sometimes we don't pay attention to that feeling. Conversation is so rich and has so much information that we tend to just listen to people's words instead of noticing everything else. So they might say like, "Oh no, I'm feeling fine. I'm doing good." But if their arms are crossed and their voice is kind of soft and their eyes are downcast, then that's an indication that their words don't really capture what they're feeling at this moment.
RX: Yeah, definitely. And you talk about this in Supercommunicators, but there are so many situations where communication is really vital. Like, the example that sticks out to me are the astronauts being stuck in space and having poor communication skills and it causing so many issues for the mission. Do you want to expand on that a bit?
CD: Yeah, so in the early 1980s, NASA started looking for different kinds of astronauts because they were about to start doing longer space missions and start building the Space Station. And so one of the psychologists, he said like, "We need to find astronauts who have high emotional intelligence." But the problem is by the time you get to the final rounds of interviews to become an astronaut, you're really, really good at faking emotional intelligence [laughs], right? You can do it all. I mean, these are like The Right Stuff guys and women. And so he couldn't tell the difference between who was faking it really well and who actually had emotional intelligence, but he knew that after six months in space living in like this little tin can with six other people, the difference was going to matter.
So he starts paying attention to how the astronauts react when he asks them certain kinds of questions. And what he realizes is, if they laugh similar to him or if they show concern for him, mostly if they prove that they want to connect, it's a really good signal that they actually have emotional intelligence. So he started changing how he was doing his interviews. He started coming into the room and he'd be carrying this big stack of papers, and he would spill them all over the floor as soon as he got in. Then he would go "Ha-ha-ha! I look like a clown spilling all these papers!" And laugh really big and then notice how the astronaut laughed back. Because some of the astronauts would laugh back politely. They'd go "Ha, that's funny." Because we know we're supposed to laugh back. But some of them would match him and they would go “Ha-ha-ha! Let me help you pick them up." Right? The ones who matched him, they were showing him that they wanted to connect.
And then at some point during the interview, he would tell a sort of sad story and talk about a family member who had passed away, sort of bring it up naturally. And he would pay attention: Did the other person ask him questions about this person? Did they try and console him? Did they look concerned themselves, or did they just say, "Oh, my condolences. I'm sorry," and sort of then just stop?
And the point here is that one of the things that supercommunicators do that's really powerful is in addition to asking questions—and they ask a certain kind of question that's known as a deep question—in addition to all kinds of things of proving to you that they're listening to you, supercommunicators also show that they want to connect. That's the thing that matters is that when someone shows you that they want to connect with you, which can feel a little bit vulnerable, can feel a little bit like I'm exposing something, but when they show that, that's how they connect with us. Because once we know someone wants to connect, it becomes so much easier for us to do so.
RX: Definitely. I love that story so much. I couldn't help but think about what would it look like if Sheldon Cooper went into an interview and the interviewer was screening for someone with really great communication skills. Now, obviously there's a huge benefit to any organization to have employees with great communication skills, but how do you think organizations or groups can balance looking for those communication competencies maybe with being inclusive of individuals who possess a variety of other skills?
CD: Yeah, no. Absolutely. I mean, that's why teaching these communication skills is really important and really easy. I mentioned that there's these questions, deep questions that oftentimes supercommunicators ask. And a deep question is something that asks about your values or your beliefs or your experiences. And they're actually surprisingly easy to ask, right? Like, if you bump into someone and you say, "Oh, what do you do for a living?" And they say, "Oh, I'm a lawyer." You could say, "Oh, what made you decide to go to law school?" Or "What do you love about practicing law?" Those are both deep questions because they ask me to describe the experiences I had when in my youth that led me to law school or the values and beliefs that I bring to work that make this work rewarding and meaningful for me.
And even better, if I ask that question and you answer it, "Oh, you know, I went to law school because when I was a kid, I saw someone get arrested unjustly and I wanted to fight for the underdog." Then as the questioner, it becomes very natural to answer that same question yourself and say, "Oh, you know, that's interesting. I went to medical school because my dad got sick and I saw how powerful these physicians could be in helping our lives." Now you're having a real conversation, right? You're really learning things about each other. And so one thing that we can teach people to make them better communicators in the workplace is just how to ask deep questions. It's a really easy thing to do. It's a habit that you fall into once you start thinking about it.
Another thing that we can do is just teach them to think a little bit more about what they're saying. There was this experiment that was done that's a wonderful experiment where researchers went into this investment bank where people would scream at each other all the time, like all day long. And they told each of them, "Okay, for the next week before every single meeting, write down just one sentence before you go into the meeting, which is what you hope to accomplish in this meeting and the mood you hope to establish." This would take like seven to 10 seconds. And they would jot down like, “I want us to agree on the budget and I want everyone to be happy with it.” Or “I want to ask Maria if she'll come on vacation with me, but I want to make it easy for her to say no. I don't want to make it awkward.”
And what they found is that when people did that, they would write that sentence down, stick it in their pocket. They usually wouldn't tell anyone what they'd written down. They usually didn't even think about it again, but the incidence of conflict at this investment bank went down by 80 percent that month. And the reason why is because when we know what we want out of a conversation, it becomes easier for us to get it. And more importantly, it becomes easier for us to ask other people what they want as well, and that makes a conversation better.
RX: Yeah, definitely. And it sounds like in these examples of interviewers searching for candidates, or someone who is already at an organization who wants to do a better job, it's like they need to become better communicators too. What do you think organizations can do or what are some tools that they can employ to help their employees become better communicators?
CD: Absolutely. So, in addition to teaching them things like deep questions and trying to match each other in the different kinds of conversations, there's this other technique that's really, really important that supercommunicators tend to use all the time and that in workplaces is critical. And it's known as looping for understanding. And in the book, we talk about looping for understanding in the context of this experiment where they brought together gun-control enthusiasts and gun-rights activists, so people who normally hate each other. And their goal was just to get them to have a civil conversation, not to change anyone's minds, just to see if they could talk with each other without screaming.
And so they taught them this technique, looping for understanding, and it has three steps. The first step is ask a question, preferably a deep question if you can. Then the next step is once someone has answered that question, repeat back what they told you in your own words. And then the third step, and this is the one everyone always forgets, is ask if you got it right. And the reason why this is so powerful is because oftentimes when we are talking to other people, we don't know if they are listening to us or not. And there's part of our brain that suspects they're just waiting their turn to speak. They're not actually listening. So we have to prove that we're listening. We have to demonstrate and make clear to them that we're really listening closely. And when we do this, we ask a question and then repeat back in our own words what they said to show that we heard them and then we ask if we got it right, that feels wonderful, right? When people have done that to me, it just feels amazing. Like, it shows me that they're actually listening to me, which makes me more willing to listen to them.
"At the core of how we have real conversations is that we invite all the identities that each of us possess in. Because if you see someone through the lens of just one identity, it's going to feel like a stereotype. But all you have to do is invite those other ones in and suddenly that falls away."
And in workplaces, this is what we find, is that oftentimes the biggest problem with communication is that you have two people who maybe they're having a disagreement or maybe they're just discussing what they should do in the future. And each of them suspects in some part of their mind, almost subconsciously, that the other person isn't listening. So when you prove that you're listening through a technique like looping for understanding, then all of a sudden all of that miscommunication and that suspicion goes away.
RX: Absolutely. I thought that tool, looping for understanding, was so amazing. I wish it was something that I had learned almost in grade school or that we could start teaching kids because it's just a skill that's going to help people throughout their entire lives.
CD: And it's really easy, right? Like, I find myself all the time being like, "What I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is..." And then the other person is like, "Yeah, yeah. No, that's, you got it." Like, it feels so good to be listened to [laughs].
RX: Oh yeah, it definitely does. I mean, it just tickles that part of your brain that's looking for connection and understanding, I think. You talked about the gun control example from Supercommunicators, which is so great, and I can't wait for more people to listen to it. We're in an election year. I heard you say in another recent interview, I think you were talking to Publishers Weekly, and you were talking about how a lot of our political and social problems are caused by communication issues. I want to get a little deeper and ask, what tips do you have for surviving conversations this election season, especially with folks who maybe have different views than you?
CD: Well, and it's not just this election, right? One of the reasons I wrote the book now is because over the last decade the whole world has become more polarized, right? We sometimes don't have conversations with people, even family members, because we're worried what they're going to say about politics or gender or race or any number of topics. And so we just avoid the conversation and avoid them. But that's not how a democracy works. That's not what people want. I don't want to fight with my neighbor. And my neighbor, every neighbor I've had, has some different opinions than I do, right? That's part of being alive. But I don't want to disagree with them. I want to have a friendly relationship with them. I, most importantly, I want to understand them. And this is what supercommunicators recognize about every conversation, and particularly these harder conversations, these conversations you're worried about.
The first thing that they realize is the goal of a conversation is not to change someone's mind. It's not even to make sure that they know how you feel on a topic. The goal of a conversation is simply to understand each other. And if I go into a conversation with someone I disagree with and we walk away still disagreeing with each other but I understand them and they understand me, we both understand how the other person sees the world, then that conversation is a huge success.
And that means that when you go in, it takes so much pressure off you because you don't have to tell them why Biden or Trump is terrible or great. You just have to understand how they see the world. And that's accomplished oftentimes just by asking deep questions. And the easiest deep question is just, “What does this mean to you?” Like, “Tell me about what this election means to you. Why is it important to you?” And then just listen to what the person says. And if you're capable, loop for understanding. Repeat back and ask if you got it right and prove to them that you were listening. And then tell them why this election is important to you. These deep questions are really powerful.
But then the second thing is, and we know this about the social conversations, the conversations when we're talking about society, which oftentimes conversations about politics or religion or race or gender are about society. We know that one of the things that's really destructive is when we see someone as only one identity and they see us as one identity. It makes a conversation really hard because we fall into stereotypes very quickly. If I'm talking to you and I say, "Look, you're a Black man and I'm a white man, and so I want to talk about policing." That's going to be a tough conversation. But the right way to do it is to bring in all the identities that all of us possess, because the truth of the matter is we all contain multitudes of identities. And so if I say to someone, "You know, as a Black man, you probably have some opinions on policing, but I know you're also a lawyer and you're also a parent of teenage sons. And I know that you belong to our neighborhood association. And so I'm wondering, those different perspectives probably give you different thoughts on how policing ought to be done. Can you tell me what you think, given that you hold all these different identities, you hold all these different positions?"
That suddenly is a much richer conversation because I've acknowledged all the different identities that this person has and they know I'm not trying to push them into some stereotype. I'm not trying to push them into a box. I really want to understand what they think. And the answer that they give me will be complex and interesting. It'll be an opportunity for us to genuinely understand each other. And then I can mention all my identities and how that influences how I see things. That's at the core of how we have real conversations is that we invite all the identities that each of us possess in. Because if you see someone through the lens of just one identity, it's going to feel like a stereotype. But all you have to do is invite those other ones in and suddenly that falls away.
RX: Absolutely. I have to say, it's been so amazing hearing you speak after listening to you narrate. And I felt like I was having conversation while I was listening to your book, and now I'm actually playing it out. This has been wonderful. Can you talk a bit about your experience recording your audiobook?
CD: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I had never recorded an audiobook before. And I consume a massive amount of audiobooks, so I listen to them all the time. And I was kind of curious what it was going to be like. And the thing that was hardest was oftentimes, you know, I've read this book myself like a thousand times for editing it, right? But when you read for editing, you're looking for a lot of things. You're like, "Does this sentence line up with that sentence? Does this argument make sense? Is there a way someone might disagree with me that I need to acknowledge?"
"If there's one thing that I hope people carry away, it's this—that forming connections with others is really important...And the way that we do that is through conversations. And most importantly, anyone can learn to have meaningful conversations. Anyone can learn to become a supercommunicator."
But when you're reading for the audiobook, you have to be completely in the moment and just concentrate on the word you're saying. Not think forward, not think backwards. And I actually, it's almost like this meditative state that I got into where it took three days to read the audiobook, but it'd usually be a little bit rough at the beginning of the day. But then I would redo it and eventually I got to a place where I was reading the book and not really even remembering having read it because I was so focused on what this sentence was saying and trying to get it across. It was a really interesting experience and I hope that people like it. I always love listening to an author read their own work. So, we'll see. We'll see if people think that I did a good job.
RX: Personally, I think you did a great job. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, and I think you have one of those rare talents where you're able to communicate via written word and spoken word. So, I really—
CD: That's really nice of you. Thank you.
RX: —loved listening to it. I hope you'll consider narrating in the future as well.
CD: Absolutely. Absolutely.
RX: So, we're almost out of time, but I want to get to just this one last question. You present so many fascinating ideas for what makes a strong communicator. If you could only choose one, what would be the most helpful takeaway for listeners?
CD: Yeah. So, the last chapter of the book, the afterword, it talks about this experiment that was done at Harvard, and it's known as the Harvard Study of Adult Development. That's what it's called now. It's had like five or six different names over the years because it's been going on for almost 100 years. And what these researchers have done is that they've followed thousands of people from their youth up until their old age and after they die, because it's been going on so long. And they try and figure out what are the inputs, what are the characteristics that make someone healthy as they get older, and happy and successful? And for a long time, they had these theories, because this started in the 1930s. And their theories were a little crazy, you know, if you come from a good family, you'll be more successful and healthier. If you run at least half a mile a day—and it turns out that those things, at least the running helps a little bit, right? The family really doesn't matter. But the only thing that they found was a consistent indicator of being happy and healthy and successful at 65 is if you had real connections with other people at the age 45. And there's nothing magical about 45, it's just that if you have real connections at 45, you've had connections probably for 20 years with these people.
And what they walked away saying is, "The only thing that really matters is having at least a few really strong relationships." That if you have at least a handful of strong relationships, you'll live longer than other people, you'll be happier than other people. You'll actually be more successful because those relationships will help you find opportunities. And the reason why this is so important is because the way that we create those relationships is through conversation. And it doesn't mean you have to talk to this person every day. In fact, there's one person who's one of my best friends that I talk to every six months, and then we only talk on the phone. We haven't seen each other in years. But when we talk, it's a real conversation. We really connect with each other. And I feel like this person is one of my best friends, that they know who I am.
If there's one thing that I hope people carry away, it's this—that forming connections with others is really important. In fact, the surgeon general just said that being lonely is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day for your health. Forming connections with others is really, really important. And the way that we do that is through conversations. And most importantly, anyone can learn to have meaningful conversations. Anyone can learn to become a supercommunicator. It's just a handful of skills that our brain has evolved to make into habits. And so once we learn them and we start practicing them, in no time they become second nature and we become someone who can connect with anyone, including the people who matter most to us.
RX: Thank you, Charles. I feel so inspired to pick up the phone now and call some friends after work today.
CD: Oh, good. Call some friends. Even if you haven't talked to them in a year, give them a call. I promise you, it'll be a wonderful conversation.
RX: Thank you so much for speaking with me today, Charles.
CD: Wonderful. Thank you so much. That was so much fun.
RX: For anyone listening, you can find Supercommunicators on Audible. I highly recommend you listen to it, especially if you want to work on connecting with others.
