In this episode we explore the critical distinction between schooling and education—and why it matters more than ever. Drawing from his book Through a Different Lens: Lessons from a Life in Education, Prof Dr Ger Graus OBE challenges us to rethink how we prepare children not just for exams, but for lifelong learning.

From conversations with Reggio Emilia's Carla Rinaldi to insights on India's National Education Plan, this episode examines how different systems approach the fundamental question: is schooling enabling education, or limiting it? Ger and Mark discuss the narrowing of curricula, the disconnect between political agendas and educational best practice, and the untapped potential of museums, libraries, and cultural institutions as essential learning partners.

With passionate calls for cross-party consensus on children's wellbeing and a reimagining of what it means to truly educate rather than simply school, this conversation is a rallying cry for parents, educators, and policymakers to refocus on what children actually need to thrive in the modern world—not the industrial revolution.

Key Quotes

"The better schooled you are, the better educated you can be if you wish to be."

"We don't talk about wellbeing, we talk about not wellbeing. The entire conversation is never about, oh my God, I feel so great. The entire conversation is, I feel so lousy."

"If you are going to study Shakespeare with children and young people...... they should either get the chance to see the play or to be in it...... you could not be in an outstanding school if you don't adhere to those things."

"The bar in England in that sense is set unbelievably low. Please do not look to England as an example of best practice."

Key Takeaways

1. Schooling ≠ Education - Schooling is a 10-15 year period within a lifetime of education (ages 0-99). In an ideal system, schooling should be an enabler that equips people to become lifelong learners, not just to pass exams or accumulate credentials.
2. The Dutch Advantage - The Dutch language uses the same word for teaching and learning, conceptually removing the artificial separation. This linguistic integration reflects a more holistic approach where teaching and learning are seen as complementary parts of the same process.
3. Cultural Institutions Are Underutilized - Museums, libraries, galleries, theatres, and music venues are crying out for audiences while schools struggle within narrow curricula. There's enormous untapped potential in creating systematic partnerships between schools and these cultural institutions to enrich both education and teaching.
4. We Need Cross-Party Consensus - Educational policy suffers from constant reinvention with each new government. Creating a consensus on core priorities (wellbeing, music, physical education, etc.) that transcends political cycles would provide stability and allow genuine progress rather than perpetual wheel-reinventing.
5. Shift from "Not Wellbeing" to "Wellbeing" - Current conversations focus on problems (obesity, knife crime, mental health issues) rather than positive wellbeing. Education policy should reframe the dialogue to proactively build wellbeing through entitlements like music, arts, and cultural participation—things that make us feel good, not just prevent us from feeling bad.

Join the conversation using #educationonfire and share your...

This episode explores how children's aspirations are fundamentally shaped by their experiences and what they're exposed to. Drawing from Prof Dr Ger Graus's groundbreaking work with the Wythenshawe Education Action Zone and Manchester Airport, they unpack the reality that children from disadvantaged backgrounds often can't dream of careers they've never seen.

The conversation moves from airports to universities, examining how partnership between education and industry can transform lives. Ger shares compelling research from KidZania revealing that stereotypes are set by age 4, and discusses the Children's University model that brought families into higher education spaces for the first time.

Ger challenges listeners to think beyond traditional schooling, emphasizing the critical importance of out-of-school experiences, parental engagement, and creating purposeful learning that helps young people discover why education matters—not just what they must learn.

Key Quotes

"If you have a strong purpose in life, you don't have to be pushed. Your passion will drive you there." - Roy T. Bennett (quoted by Ger Graus)

"Don't you know that people from Wythenshawe don't fly planes?" - 6-7 year old children to Ger Graus

This heartbreaking response reveals how aspirational lids are placed on children's jars from an early age, limiting what they believe is possible for themselves.

"We get hung up on schooling more than education...we're quite happy to alienate the parents. We actually don't want much to do with the parents." - Ger Graus

"We need to draw the parents in, we must make them our co-educators...it takes a village to raise a child. Well, we need to remember that the village consists of different components and parents and grandparents are very important but we must engage them." - Ger Graus

"Give me a confident learner and I'll bring you the grades." - Ger Graus

This powerful statement challenges the system's focus on test results over building confident, independent learners who can thrive in any context.

Key Takeaways

1. Children can only aspire to careers and opportunities they know exist—exposure matters
2. Stereotypes about career choices are set by age 4, yet we don't discuss futures until age 14
3. Partnerships between schools, businesses, and communities create win-win situations
4. Out-of-school experiences are not luxuries—they're essential for breaking cycles of disadvantage
5. True education requires engaging parents as co-educators, not alienating them
6. We need futures awareness in primary schools, not just careers education in secondary schools

Join the conversation using #educationonfire and share your stories of expanding children's horizons.

Chapters:

1. 00:10 - Celebrating Milestones in Education
2. 00:39 - Introduction to the Series: Gare Grouse Gets Gritty
3. 12:50 - Aspirations and Limitations: The Impact of Local Perceptions on Career Choices
4. 17:55 - The Importance of Experience in Learning

In this first episode of a special 10-part series named Ger Graus Gets Gritty, Mark Taylor sits down with Professor Dr. Ger Graus OBE to launch an honest conversation about education and schooling.

Following the release of Ger's book "Through a Different Lens: Lessons from a Life in Education" this series uses each chapter as a springboard for examining what's working—and what isn't—in our education systems.

In this episode Ger shares his personal journey from a difficult childhood in the Netherlands to becoming a passionate advocate for experience-based learning. He reflects on how one transformative teacher changed his trajectory, the crucial differences between primary and secondary education, and why putting children at the centre of learning must be more than just rhetoric.

This episode tackles the benefit of hindsight, the importance of storytelling in education, and why courage is needed to swim against the current of compliance-driven schooling.

Key Quotes

"If you're a teacher, just realize that 50 years from now someone will say your name... That's your responsibility, whether to say good things or bad things, nice things or not so nice things. That's in your gift and that's in your hands."

"The minute you touch on an abstract in your lesson, the next thing that should happen is, comma, for example, the two most important words in that lesson. Because what that means is that you exemplify, you tell a story effectively, you take these children in mind and heart, you take them on a short journey."

"What we have become is accountable to the system and not accountable to the child."

"I think we need to make education and schooling and the connection between the two much more of a societal dialogue."

"Children can only aspire to what they know exists."

Takeaways:

1. The podcast marks a significant milestone, celebrating ten years and 500 episodes, highlighting the journey of Education on Fire.
2. Professor Dr. Ger Graus OBE's engagement signifies a collaborative effort to address pressing educational issues through meaningful dialogue.
3. The series titled 'Ger Graus Gets Gritty' aims to promote positive change in education, focusing on the welfare of children and supportive learning environments.
4. Listeners are encouraged to participate in the conversation and share stories that advocate for the well-being of children in educational settings.
5. The podcast emphasizes the importance of community involvement in education, asserting that collective action is essential for fostering supportive learning experiences.
6. The discussion raises critical questions about the current educational system, advocating for reforms that prioritize children's needs over economic or political agendas.

Chapters:

1. 00:08 - Celebrating Milestones in Education
2. 01:09 - The Importance of Community in Education
3. 23:31 - The Importance of Storytelling in Education
4. 33:03 - Reflections on Childhood and Education

Samantha Gourd from Country Space explains the profound benefits and opportunities presented by connecting educational institutions with British farms. The initiative aims to provide immersive, hands-on learning experiences for students, facilitating a deeper understanding of agriculture and sustainability.

By engaging children in activities such as growing vegetables and caring for animals, the program not only enhances educational curricula but also fosters a lifelong respect for nature. The conversation underscores the critical role of primary education in shaping future citizens who appreciate the origins of their food and the importance of environmental stewardship. This dialogue serves as a clarion call for schools to embrace experiential learning beyond the confines of the traditional classroom.

Takeaways:

1. The conversation with Samantha Gourd emphasizes the critical importance of connecting schools with British farms to foster experiential learning opportunities for children.
2. Through immersive workshops, students gain hands-on experience in farming, which cultivates empathy and respect for nature and sustainability.
3. Samantha's initiative aims to address the pressing challenges faced by British farming, thereby ensuring food security and sustainability for future generations.
4. Early exposure to farming and food production significantly influences children's values and perceptions about agriculture as they grow into adulthood.
5. Country Space serves as a vital intermediary between educational institutions and farms, facilitating safe and enriching experiences that benefit both parties.
6. The podcast underscores the necessity of integrating real-world experiences into the educational system to inspire future generations about the origins of their food.

Chapters:

1. 00:00 - Connecting Schools to British Farms
2. 05:30 - The Importance of Agricultural Education
3. 09:40 - Understanding Food Education in Schools
4. 11:49 - The Impact of Nature on Well-Being
5. 19:49 - The Impact of Farm Visits on Education
6. 22:34 - Inspiration and Engagement in Education

http://www.country-space.co.uk/

Countryspaceuk - to connect on social media

For all primary schools looking to join workshops on their Kent and Sussex farms - mention Education on Fire to get 10% off

Show Sponsor – National Association for Primary Education (NAPE) https://nape.org.uk/

Find out more about their Primary First Journal: https://www.educationonfire.com/nape

🔥 Discover more about Education on Fire and get a FREE pdf of 10 guest resources you can use to support learning

https://www.educationonfire.com/

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https://www.educationonfire.com/support

Dr. Cynthia Rapaido, a highly accomplished educator, holds an Ed.D. in International and Multicultural Education and an M.A. in Educational Administration from the University of San Francisco. She earned her B.S. in Applied Arts and Sciences Biology from San Diego State University. With over 30 years of experience in K–12 education, she has served as a high school principal, assistant principal, and teacher, gaining a comprehensive understanding of the educational landscape across various schools and districts in California.

Dr. Rapaido’s dedication extends to higher education, where she has contributed significantly as a faculty lecturer, dissertation advisor, and university field supervisor at esteemed institutions such as the University of California, Berkeley, University of San Francisco, and California State University, East Bay. Her passion for teaching, mentoring, and coaching educators is evident in her continuing role as an educational leadership coach and consultant. She also mentors graduate and doctoral students at her alma maters.

Often actively engaged in research, Dr. Rapaido participates in academic peer review panels and presents her work at conferences, covering diverse topics within education and leadership. Her research interests include educational leadership, teacher education, school climate, diversity sensitivity, multicultural competency, social justice, emotional intelligence, and the impact of colonialism and imperialism.

Dr. Rapaido was honored by the Filipina Women’s Network (FWN) in 2011 as one of "100 Most Influential Filipina Women in the United States". She was commended by the Association of California School Administrators (ACSA) and received the "2013 California Secondary Co-Administrator of the Year" award. The following year, the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP) recognized her as a finalist for the prestigious "Assistant Principal of the Year" award for the State of California, highlighting her outstanding, active, and front-line leadership.

In July 2024, Dr. Rapaido published her first book, "Step Up Your School Leadership Game ~ The New Administrators' Guide ~ Lessons to Navigate Big and Small Challenges with Confidence and Purpose".

Takeaways:

1. Dr. Cynthia Rapaido possesses over 30 years of experience in K12 education, contributing to various roles.
2. Her extensive career includes positions as a teacher, assistant principal, and principal in California schools.
3. In 2024, Dr. Rapaido authored her first book, which serves as a guide for aspiring school leaders.
4. She emphasizes the importance of mentorship for new educators and administrators entering the field.
5. Dr. Rapaido advocates for building relationships with both students and parents to enhance educational outcomes.
6. The podcast discusses the critical transitions students face from elementary to high school, highlighting the need for support.

Chapters:

1. 00:02 - Introducing Dr. Cynthia Rapaido
2. 06:10 - Transitions in Education
3. 16:50 - Transitioning from Education to Writing

Marie-Claire Parsons is the project lead for Harry's Rainbow, a charity that support bereaved children in Milton Keynes. She has 30 years experience in schools culminating in founding a 6 school federation and being the executive headteacher. Marie-Claire has been a family liaison officer, education lead and beneficiary lead for the charity. She has just completed leading on an art project where 15 young people explored their grief through graffiti, entitled 'Grieffiti'! Harry's Rainbow offer activity based support groups to children bereaved of a parent or sibling, set up by Odette Mould MBE almost 15 years ago after the death of her son, Harry.

Takeaways:

1. Harry's Rainbow is a charity that provides vital support to bereaved children in Milton Keynes, having been established nearly 15 years ago following the tragic loss of a child.
2. The charity organizes various support groups, which are activity-based, catering to children from ages 1 to 25, thereby fostering a sense of community among grieving families.
3. Through collaborative artistic projects, bereaved children are encouraged to express their grief and emotions in creative ways, helping them to process their experiences.
4. Understanding that grief is not linear is essential; people may experience a myriad of emotions simultaneously, which underscores the importance of having sensitive support structures in place.
5. The role of educational institutions in recognizing and addressing bereavement among students is crucial, as ongoing support can significantly impact a child's ability to cope with loss.
6. An urgent need exists for schools to implement bereavement policies and support systems that acknowledge the unique challenges faced by bereaved children and their families.

Chapters:

1. 00:02 - Introduction to Harry's Rainbow
2. 08:09 - The Importance of Discussing Grief and Bereavement
3. 12:48 - The Importance of Support in Grief
4. 14:06 - Understanding Grief and Its Impact on Life
5. 24:54 - Understanding Bereavement in Schools
6. 34:13 - Supporting Children Through Grief and Loss
7. 44:31 - Understanding Grief and Support
8. 45:39 - The Stages of Grief: A Reassessment

https://harrysrainbow.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-harry-s-rainbow-charitable-trust/

https://www.instagram.com/harrys_rainbow_/

https://www.facebook.com/HarrysRainbow/

Show Sponsor – National Association for Primary Education (NAPE) https://nape.org.uk/

Find out more about their Primary First Journal: https://www.educationonfire.com/nape

🔥 Discover more about Education on Fire and get a FREE pdf of 10 guest resources you can use to support learning

https://www.educationonfire.com/

🔥 Support the show – Buy me a coffee, Merch and Sponsorship...

Jenna Udenberg is a lifelong resident from the Northshore of Minnesota and is a former music educator of 19 years. She has used a manual wheelchair since the age of 8 due to Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis. Jenna is a 2017 Blandin Foundation Community Leader, a 2020 Bush Fellow, and a 2025 Shannon Leadership Institute Fellow.

Writing for the Lake County Press in her column, Local View from 4 foot 2, inspires vulnerability and the sharing of lived experiences from the seated perspective. Within My Spokes: A Tapestry of Pain, Growth & Freedom is Jenna’s published memoir which you can find on the A&BWU website, on Amazon or wherever you find your books.

In her free time, you can find Jenna outdoors on paved trails or fishing with friends, playing board and card games, as well as coaching the Robo Dweebs, a LEGO robotics team. Jenna is the founder of the non-profit, Above & Beyond With U, which works to increase accessibility and inclusion in Minnesota and beyond.

Takeaways:

1. Jenna Udenberg emphasizes the importance of creating accessible and inclusive environments for all individuals.
2. The principle of universal design plays a crucial role in ensuring equitable access to spaces and services.
3. A significant aspect of Jenna's work is fostering conversations around disability and breaking down societal misconceptions.
4. The sentiment that all humans have needs is central to Jenna's advocacy for kindness and understanding in community interactions.
5. Jenna's experiences as a wheelchair user illuminate the barriers present in everyday environments and the need for thoughtful design.
6. The phrase 'nothing for us without us' encapsulates the necessity of including disabled individuals in discussions about accessibility.

Chapters:

1. 00:10 - Jenna Udenberg: A Journey of Resilience
2. 01:29 - Creating Inclusive Spaces: The Mission of Above and Beyond
3. 10:24 - Understanding Disability and Accessibility
4. 25:56 - Understanding Disability in Education
5. 32:51 - Reflections on Teaching and Growth Mindset
6. 37:18 - Empowerment and Resilience in Leadership

https://www.aboveandbeyondwithu.org/

https://www.instagram.com/aboveandbeyondwithu

https://www.facebook.com/people/Above-Beyond-With-U/100091881005060/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/91173822

Show Sponsor – National Association for Primary Education (NAPE) https://nape.org.uk/

Find out more about their Primary First Journal: https://www.educationonfire.com/nape

🔥 Discover more about Education on Fire and get a FREE pdf of 10 guest resources you can use to support learning

https://www.educationonfire.com/

🔥 Support the show – Buy me a coffee, Merch and Sponsorship Opportunities

https://www.educationonfire.com/support

Victoria Lenormand is a former police detective turned holistic coach, Reiki master, and passionate advocate for alternative education and social justice. With a 28-year career in public service behind her, Victoria’s lens is both compassionate and sharp: she’s witnessed firsthand how institutions can sometimes fail those they claim to serve. Her journey took a transformative turn when her youngest son’s autism diagnosis revealed the flaws in rigid educational and medical systems. Choosing to home educate, she and her family embraced a life of flexibility, healing, and empowerment—living in a motorhome before settling in Scotland and exploring a more intuitive way of living. Her family’s transformation, sparked by a combination of diet, environment, and deep listening, revealed the healing power of choice and the cost of ignoring it.

Today, through Gemini Directions, Victoria now works with families and individuals who feel stuck inside systems not made for them. Her work draws on training in wellness coaching, trauma-informed care, and energy work—but more than anything, it’s shaped by real-world experience: managing crisis with calm, asking better questions, making space when the default is to push through. Victoria speaks to parents at breaking point, professionals navigating burnout, and educators or policymakers open to doing things differently. Her conversations centre around those day-to-day quiet acts of courage: advocating for yourself, questioning “normal,” and moving toward something slower, more responsive, and often more effective.

Takeaways:

1. The value of a child is often revealed in the challenges they face, not just in their successes.
2. When traditional education fails to meet a child's needs, parents must explore alternative educational paths.
3. Creating a supportive community is essential for families navigating the complexities of education and special needs.
4. Empowering children to take charge of their own learning fosters autonomy and encourages a love for education.
5. Resilience is cultivated through overcoming challenges and learning to adapt in the face of adversity.
6. The holistic approach to education recognizes the interconnectedness of emotional, physical, and academic well-being.

Chapters:

1. 00:20 - Choosing to Withdraw: A New Direction
2. 06:20 - The Journey of Learning and Discovery
3. 08:23 - The Journey of Learning and Inclusion
4. 18:51 - Navigating Educational Change
5. 22:49 - Rethinking Education: Navigating New Possibilities
6. 28:20 - The Journey of Personalization in Learning
7. 34:45 - Navigating Educational Change and Personal Growth
8. 40:01 - The Importance of Community Support in Challenging Times
9. 42:38 - The Power of Resilience and Community