You know the zero click problem is real. But how do you get your CEO or CMO on board — and how do you prove it's working once they are? In this episode, I chat with Rand Fishkin to talk measurement frameworks, his new AI visibility research, and why correlation (not causation) is the name of the game.

Guest: Rand Fishkin, Co-founder and CEO of SparkToro

Key takeaway:

Timestamps:
00:00 "All the things that happen in a zero click environment will eventually lead to the same thing that clicks led to"
01:13 What do you tell an executive who believes in zero click but doesn't know what to do next?
04:20 How to start thinking about measurement when there's no single dashboard to point to
07:41 The double standard: executives are comfortable with fuzzy measurement for TV and display ads, but demand perfect attribution for content, influencers, and PR
11:02 Where your competitors refuse to invest leaves more room for you
14:07 AI hype as a Trojan horse to convince skeptics: if you believe AI is the future, what's the logical conclusion of AI summarizing content?
17:22 AI as both the cause of and a mental model for zero click
19:14 Rand and Gumshoe's AI visibility research: Rand noticed AI gives different answers to the same prompt every time, which made him skeptical of the entire AI rank-tracking industry
24:12 The big finding: you'd need ~1,000 prompts to get the same ranked answer — rank tracking is unreliable. But brand visibility percentage is real.
29:08 AI visibility as a trackable indicator for zero click marketing success
33:36 Myth busting: zero click marketing ≠ zero sales, and it's not just a Google problem — it's every platform

This episode is brought to you by SparkToro — the audience research tool that helps you find where your audience spends time, what they read, watch, and listen to, and who influences them. Learn more at sparktoro.com. And be sure to check out Gumshoe.ai for search and AI visibility.

Edited by Share Your Genius (shareyourgenius.com)

Learn more about Zero Click Marketing and Amanda Natividad:

• zeroclickmarketing.co
• amandanat.com
• Amanda's LinkedIn and Instagram

Amanda Natividad defines Zero Click Marketing, shares a simple mental model (the ZCM Ladder), and gives you a mini playbook you can use this week.

What you’ll learn:

• What Zero Click Marketing is (and what it isn’t)
• The ZCM Ladder: Seen → Understood → Remembered → Preferred → Sought out
• The scoreboard: what to measure when clicks aren’t the whole story
• 3 moves to start doing ZCM this week (without burning out)
• And here's your free ZCM one-pager!

Timestamps:
00:00 Zero-click isn’t anti-click. It’s pro-reality.
01:20 The definition (and why it’s not “no clicks”)
03:10 What ZCM is not: “ignore your website,” “post more,” “just brand vibes”
07:10 The ZCM Ladder: Seen → Understood → Remembered → Preferred → Sought out
10:30 Why “remembered” matters in B2B (buyers do most deciding without vendors)
13:40 The scoreboard: leading indicators vs. lagging indicators
16:20 Mini playbook: 3 moves you can try this week

This episode is brought to you by SparkToro — the audience research tool that helps you find where your audience spends time, what they read, watch, and listen to, and who influences them. Learn more at sparktoro.com.

This episode was edited by Share Your Genius (shareyourgenius.com)

Learn more about Zero Click Marketing and Amanda Natividad:

• zeroclickmarketing.co
• amandanat.com
• Follow @amandanat on LinkedIn and Instagram