Nick Cohen and Anne Applebaum discuss the current state of democracy in the United States and Europe, focusing on the rise of populism and identity politics, while exploring how political figures maintain support despite policy failures. They examined the systematic dismantling of American institutions under Trump's administration, including attacks on the civil service and potential weakening of military capabilities, while also discussing the emerging alliance between authoritarian states opposed to American influence. The conversation concluded with a discussion of the current state of American politics, including the narrow margins in recent elections and the need for effective opposition strategies to defend democratic values both in the U.S. and across Europe.

Democracy's Challenges in Populist Era

Anne and Nick talk about the current state of democracy in the United States and Europe, focusing on the rise of populism and the shift towards identity politics. Anne highlighted how political figures like Nigel Farage in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have maintained support despite policy failures, attributing it to the emotional appeal of their cultural identities. They explored the question of whether real-world issues like inflation and healthcare are now less important than online cultural battles. Andrew asked Anne about the dangers facing American democracy, to which she responded that it is indeed in danger, but the outcome is still uncertain.

The UK must wake up to the MAGA reality!

Anne argues that the UK should wake up to the new reality - Powerful elements at the top of the Trump White House & MAGA not only consider the so-called "special relationship" as not only over but see the UK as an enemy. Anne says, there's a very powerful strain. Inside this administration and inside the American far right who really hate Britain. And they hate Europeans and they hate the Germans. ... there's a constant narrative about how the British violate free speech and how, you know, Britain is, an extreme left country and so on."

She says, " I'm not saying they dominate this administration, and you won't hear this from Marco Rubio, but there is a strain inside MAGA, which essentially reflects Russian propaganda. ... there's a piece of, of that movement that doesn't really want anything to do with Britain or Europe anymore....I would watch out for that and as I said, have a contingency plan and think about a world in which the United States is run by people who are hostile to Britain."

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Nick Cohen and Sunder Katwala engage in a detailed discussion about the rise of right-wing extremism in Britain, analysing rabid right rabble-rousers like Nigel Farage and examining how his evolving stance and ambiguous approach appeal to both mainstream voters and extreme elements. They explored the current political climate, focusing on the challenges faced by mainstream conservative parties and the need for addressing legitimate concerns about immigration while drawing clear boundaries against racist ideologies. The conversation concluded with discussions about the fragmented state of British politics, the need for a coherent centre-right party, and the challenges faced by political leaders in navigating complex social and cultural issues.

Nick & Sunder discuss the rise of right-wing extremism in Britain, comparing current political figures like Nigel Farage to historical fascists. Sunder expresses concern about the right setting the agenda and the dominance of emotional arguments over factual evidence. However, he remained optimistic about the long-term progress of British society, drawing on his personal experiences of racial and cultural diversity.

Sunder says "we are under policing absolute fascism and racism. Elon Musk has brought it in and what [Steve] Bannon and Trump did is they said there will be no boundary between the respectful right and the racist."

Sunder says the sinister issue of so-called "re-migration" - in other words expelling ethnic minority Brits - will eventually do for the rabid right, saying, "There's immigration there's asylum. And these are tough issues in the centre left, but remotion, which is, you know, more people should leave them come in and re migration is a far right code ultimately for the people who really want to hear the word Remi.

It's about, you know, Sunder Katwala shouldn't been allowed to be born here. So if he was, let's get him out.... Okay. It's not gonna happen. But about from kick out the ethnic minority."

Hope can still beat hate

For all its problems, and the ranting of the right, Sunder argues the UK still has a lot going for it as a tolerant and diverse society, saying ":Britain is the most Successful multi-ethnic democracy in the western world. It's a generation ahead of Western Europe."

Overall, Sunder has a message of hope after a summer of far right race-baiting, demagoguery and even predictions of civil war: "It was a very sinister, silly season. We had people predicting civil war every weekend and it never quite erupting; Farage setting the asylum debate.

"It's felt like it's going backwards for a couple of years. We can and will reverse that...And you know, if people are making impossible promises to give us sort of fantasy politics that if you quit three more international treaties, your lives will be better. Let's make the opposite case."

Read all about it!

Sunder Katwala @sundersays is a director of the British Future think tank and a former general secretary of the Fabian Society. His book, How to be a patriot, is published by HarperNorth

Nick Cohen's @NichCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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Goodbye Normal - it was nice knowing you!

Nick Cohen and author & academic Yascha Mounk explore the enduring presence of populism and the challenges faced by centrists in adapting to changing political realities, discussing how assumptions about the world have evolved over the past 25 years. They examine various economic and political challenges across different countries, including Britain, Poland, and the United States, while analyzing how populists like Modi and Trump have capitalised on claims of representing the people against elites. The conversation concluded with discussions about the challenges facing American progressives and centre-left parties, emphasising the need for strategic adjustments and effective messaging to counteract populist threats and regain political credibility.

Challenges of Centrism in Populism Era

Yascha explains the enduring presence of populism and the challenges faced by centrists in the current political landscape. Yascha highlighted how assumptions about the world, particularly those held by liberal democrats, have been swept away over the past 25 years, similar to the period after World War II. He emphasises that centrists are often out of tune with the present because they cling to outdated worldviews rather than adapting to new realities. Andrew agreed, noting that Peter Mandelson's comment about Trump being the most consequential president in living memory reflects the shift from a neoliberal to a populist order.

Defending democracy and academic freedom

Yascha also emphasises the importance of defending democratic institutions and academic freedom against threats like Donald Trump, arguing that while some may have been willing to compromise on issues like diversity statements in the past, it is now crucial to stand firm. He criticises the tendency of some liberal professors and journalists to impose their values on society, which can backfire and drive people towards Trump-like figures.

Read all about it!

Yascha is Founder and Editor-in-Chief of the Persuasion Substack - @JoinPersuasion - and also has his own Yascha Mounk Substack column. A man of many talents, Yascha hosts his own podcast, The Good Fight. Yascha's latest and highly acclaimed book - The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time - is published by Penguin. A political scientist, Yascha is also Professor of Practice at the School of Advanced International Studies of John Hopkins University in the U.S.

Nick Cohen's @NichCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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In this discussion, Nick Cohen and former diplomat Arthur Snell explore the complex relationship between Donald Trump and Russia, examining evidence suggesting Trump may be serving Russian interests either knowingly or unwittingly. They analyze Christopher Steele's controversial intelligence work on Trump-Russia connections, noting that despite criticism, many of his key allegations have proven accurate according to subsequent investigations, including the Senate Intelligence Committee report. The conversation concludes by addressing concerns about Trump's deferential behaviour toward Putin, his appointment of pro-Russian officials to intelligence positions, and the implications for US-UK intelligence sharing should Trump return to power.

In this discussion, Nick Cohen and former diplomat Arthur Snell explore the complex relationship between Donald Trump and Russia, examining evidence suggesting Trump may be serving Russian interests either knowingly or unwittingly. They analyse Christopher Steele's controversial intelligence work on Trump-Russia connections, noting that despite criticism, many of his key allegations have proven accurate according to subsequent investigations, including the Senate Intelligence Committee report. The conversation concludes by addressing concerns about Trump's deferential behaviour toward Putin, his appointment of pro-Russian officials to intelligence positions, and the implications for US-UK intelligence sharing should Trump return to power.

Trump's Russian Connection Examination

Nick Cohen introduces a discussion on whether Donald Trump is a Russian asset, with guest Arthur Snell, a former Foreign Office diplomat. Arthur explains there's a spectrum of possibilities, from Trump being a recruited KGB/FSB asset to him being an unwitting "agent of influence" serving Russian interests. They note Trump's unusual connections to the Soviet bloc during the Cold War, including his 1987 Moscow visit and marriage to Ivana from Czechoslovakia, emphasising how rare it was for American businessmen to engage with communist countries at that time.

.Arthur Snell's substack column is Not all doom & his regular inciteful podcast is Behind the Lines. Arthur's first not fiction book is How Britain Broke the World: War, Greed and Blunders from Kosovo to Afghanistan, 1997-2022 .

Nick Cohen's @NickCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond. Read Nick's latest column, Can Europe resist Trump's gangsterism? Does it have the willpower to try?

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Nick Cohen talks to author and journalist James Bloodworth about the evolving nature of politics and media in today's digital age. James explores how traditional media institutions are losing influence while online platforms and personalities mainly of the radical and far right have become more prominent, particularly noting how successful figures leverage algorithms and controversial content to gain attention.

The strange death of the mainstream media

James Bloodworth discusses the changing media landscape, noting that traditional media outlets like newspapers and TV networks are losing relevance, especially among younger audiences. He observes that podcasts and social media have become more influential, with figures like Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate gaining significant followings. Bloodworth explains that successful online personalities often understand algorithms and use outrageous statements to gain attention, both from supporters and critics.

Victimhood is pay-dirt for online Radicalised Right

James Bloodworth says radical right figures are earning online fortunes with simple messaging, saying "You slowly learn that the nuanced articles don't get as many clicks and subscriptions, and people sending you money as the more inflammatory articles." He described figures such as Matthew Goodwin as "very obviously leaning into the white supremo types who give him money on his Substack." He adds, "I don't know how much of this stuff he actually believes, but he's willing to surf that wave because it because it seems to be making him quite a lot of money."

Online far right wingers are guilty of bad faith & hypocrisy

James says right wing charlatans are always banging on about free speech when it came to people jailed for inciting violence against immigrants like the wife of a Tory councillor, Lucy Connolly, while demanding the banning of pro-Palestinian protests. James adds, "I know there are people at those protests who have said anti-semitic things, and that there have been anti-semitic chants. But... there's a complete double standard. I think it's all bad faith, and I think the accusations, particularly against Keir Starmer of two-tiered justice, are completely absurd, considering he was involved in the prosecution of people following the 2011 riots."

Read all about it!

James Bloodworth, @J_Bloodworth, the author of The Lost Boys, A personal journey through the Manosphere published on June 5th by Atlantic Books. James's Sustack is For the Desk Drawer.

Nick Cohen's regular Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond is another must-read.

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Nick Cohen talks to former Conservative MP and minister Dr Phillip Lee about the Brexit Omertà that is killing the Conservative Party. Dr Lee, now a practising GP, blames the party's spectacular demise partly on its failure to call out Nigel Garage and the Reform Party for the failure of Brexit and the dire consequences.

The elephant in the room

Phillip Lee that although few people want to talk about Brexit, they are prepared to talk about the many problems either caused or exacerbated by Brexit. He says, "Look at the boats thing... when we were members of the European Union and Dublin protocols, we could turn these people around to where they'd first entered the European Union. Okay. That was what we were able to do. Now that we're outside the European Union, we can't turn these boats around once they're on the beach."

He adds, "Now, how many people in this country actually realise that Brexit has made, dealing with the boats coming across the channel harder? I suspect very, very few people understand that factual point. So why isn't the Labour government saying that? Because they don't want to open up the discussion of. European Union membership being positive."

Government by focus group is wrong

Phillip Lee asserts that UK political parties mistakenly and all to frequently delegate their political judgment to poorly informed focus groups, saying "we rely upon focus groups from people who are often ill-informed...

It is just a fact. They don't understand the complexity of trading in negotiations. They don't understand the complexity of just-in-time manufacturing, they don't understand the challenges of geopolitics or whatever. The reason in great part is not because they can't, it's because they've gotta get the kids to school. They've gotta put food on the table. They've got busy, busy lives. They're being stretched, left, right, and centre to care for elderly and everything else..."

He warns, That just takes us down the path, which we are now too far down almost, of having a country that's not fit for purpose and not sustainable, not tenable. In fact, in the medium term, we have to be, we've gotta turn that around. We've gotta start to get to a situation where our democracy people are more informed."

Public is being manipulated all over again on Brexit

Phillip Lee argues that Nigel Farage counters the obvious failure of Brexit with the absurd claim that it just hadn't been "done right". He adds," Farage is cleverly tapping into the fact that nothing's changed. In fact, everything's got worse. But instead of people concluding it's got worse because of Brexit, he twists it as...t's not the Brexit that people voted for.

"Well, the Brexit that people voted for was never going to happen again. People were lied to and manipulated, and I think until a political party that's got a chance of forming a government in this country is honest with people about this straightforward, informs them of the reality."

Failure to be honest with the public could lead to Reform in power Phillip Lee says failure to treat the public as adults could lead to the disaster of Farage in Number 10, saying "It's just going in the path of Reform, isn't it? ... we're going to have our Trump moment and most of us are gonna have heads in our hands about it."

Nick Cohen's @NickCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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The UK voting system is falling into disrepair and disrepute

Nick Cohen talks to the distinguished pollster and political commentator Peter Kellner @PeterKellner1 about the parlous state of British democracy and the UK's creaking and increasingly unfit-for-purpose First Past the Post voting system. Peter explains how First Past the Post (FPTP) has become problematic with increased party fragmentation and changing voter demographics. He explains how economic shifts, declining manufacturing industries, and changing education patterns have influenced class structures and voting patterns, with particular attention to how university education has impacted political loyalties. Peter and Nick examine the current state of political fragmentation and the challenges facing traditional parties like Labour and Conservatives, concluding with a discussion about potential electoral reform options and the evolving nature of British politics.

British Democracy and Electoral Challenges

Nick and Peter discussed the state of British democracy and the electoral system. They explored how the first-past-the-post system has become increasingly problematic with the rise of multiple political parties, leading to situations where governments can be formed with a small percentage of the overall vote.

Class Structure and Political Loyalties

Peter explaines that the decline of traditional manufacturing industries and the corresponding decrease in union membership have led to a shift in the class structure of Britain. He also noted that the strong family-based political loyalties of the past have diminished, contributing to the reduced influence of class in modern politics. Education is an important factor in political allegiance with university graduates more likely to be more liberal with a small "l", and more open, and much less likely to vote Conservative or Reform than non-graduates.

Voter Motivations and Party Loyalty

Peter presents findings from a study on voter motivations, revealing that the primary reason voters support their party is that it is "better than the others," particularly for Labour and Conservative supporters. He noted that Labour and Conservative voters are more likely to give "consumer" reasons for their support, while Green and Reform voters are more likely to cite "devotee" reasons such as shared values or specific policies.

Peter's Substack is Peter Kellner's must-read and free to access Substack column on the state of UK politics.

Nick Cohen's @NickCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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Summary

The discussion between Nick Cohen and US-based journalist and commentator Ben Cohen centres on the implications of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal for Donald Trump, including his alleged involvement with Epstein and how Trump exploited conspiracy theories like QAnon to gain political power. The conversation explored Trump's ability to control the narrative and create distractions, while examining the impact of conspiracy theories on American politics and Trump's base of supporters. Ben Cohen shared insights about Trump's declining influence among his supporters and discussed the potential political implications of unsealed files related to Trump, including the challenges of dealing with misinformation and disinformation in American politics.

QAnon and the MAGA conspiracy mania

Ben and Nick discuss the impact of conspiracy theories, particularly QAnon, on American politics and Trump's base. Ben estimates that about 30% of Trump's supporters leaned towards QAnon beliefs, which included the idea of a corrupt "deep state." They agreed that while conspiracy theories were not the sole reason for Trump's 2024 victory, they played a significant role in his support and were part of the justification for the assault on Congress.

Misinformation in American Politics

Ben and Nick discuss the challenges of dealing with misinformation and disinformation, particularly in the context of American politics and media. Ben explained his experience writing about Candace Owens, a far-right provocateur, and the unique American phenomenon of figures like her gaining attention through sensationalism and lies. They explored the impact of such figures on public discourse and the normalisation of misinformation.

Trump's Narrative Control and Media Impact

Nick and Ben discuss the implications of the Epstein files, which reportedly contain damaging information about Donald Trump. They agree that Trump's ability to control the narrative and create distractions, such as the Obama-Russia conspiracy theory, has allowed him to avoid serious consequences for his actions. But the Epstein scandal is blowing up in Trump's face and may well yet doom his scandal-hit presidency.

Read Ben's The Banter Substacks here and listen to his podcasts here.

Nick Cohen's @NickCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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