In this episode of the Law and Beyond Show, Chantal McNaught interviews Ashley Kelso, a mechatronics engineer turned lawyer and legal tech entrepreneur. Ashley will take you on his unique journey from engineering to law, the importance of an engineering mindset in legal practice, and the challenges of adopting technology in the legal field. The conversation also touches on ethics in decision-making, collaboration in law, and advice for those looking to innovate in LegalTech.

Chantal and Ash unpack:

• What motivated Ash to transition from engineering to law due to career stagnation in engineering.
• Engineers often have a holistic approach that can benefit legal practice.
• Communication issues often lead to project failures in engineering and law.
• Ethics is a crucial part of decision-making in law.
• Law should be treated as a team sport for better outcomes.
• Technology adoption in law firms is often slow and cautious.
• Legal tech should be seen as an investment, not just a cost.
• Point solutions in LegalTech require less behaviour change from users than system solutions like practice management software.
• Understanding the self-interest of decision-makers is key for engineers.
• Simplicity and iteration are important in tech development.

Useful Links:

• More about Ash's company, HiveLight
• Goodreads: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
• Goodreads: Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't by Jim Collins
• Goodreads: The Courage to Be Disliked: A single book can change your life by Ichiro Kishimi | Goodreads

The PwC information barrier controversy was a situation where the consulting company were briefing the Australian Taxation Office about taxation legislation and at the same time providing private client advice on the upcoming changes. More about this can be read from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation here.

Host Chantal McNaught talks with Dye & Durham’s APAC MD, Carl Olson, about ALPMA’s Changing Legal Landscape report. They discuss the near-ubiquitous AI trial among practitioners, widening governance gaps, the sharp rise in wellbeing initiatives, and the real psychological load of cybersecurity incidents. Carl outlines what forward-facing firms are actually doing: holistic programmes that blend policy, process, capability-building, and technology. The conversation also challenges assumptions about flexible work and the four-day week, and why the best research often leaves us with more questions than tidy answers.

Carl and Chantal reveal:

• The scope of the report and the importance of this research.
• Wellbeing momentum and clear implementation gaps.
• Generative AI adoption and where firms are looking to improve on governance.
• Challenging the stereotype that lawyers are slow adopters.
• Cybersecurity priorities and the cost of hypervigilance and leadership stress.
• What leading firms do through holistic transformation.
• Carl's favourite song.

Links

• Deep dive into the research discussed from the Changing Legal Landscape Report
• More information about the Australasian Law Practice Managers Association (ALPMA) is available here: https://www.alpma.com.au/research/
• Here is the Cyber Security Emotional Wellness Checklist by Professor Liz Howard mentioned on the show.

Disclosure: This episode was brought to you by the generosity of Dye & Durham APAC. Without partners like Dye & Durham, we would not be able to produce this content for listeners. In the development of this episode, we have retained full editorial control.

Correction: Carl described a cyber security incident occurring from the New South Wales "Reconstruction Agency". The incident involved the New South Wales Reconstruction Authority and that was a data breach. More about this data breach can be read here.

𝗛𝗼𝘄 𝗱𝗼 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗯𝗿𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗼𝗴𝗲𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗹𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗹 𝗽𝗿𝗮𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗰𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗻𝗮𝗴𝗲𝗺𝗲𝗻𝘁, 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗵, 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗔𝗜 — 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲 𝗶𝘁 𝘄𝗼𝗿𝗸 𝗮𝘁 𝗴𝗹𝗼𝗯𝗮𝗹 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲?

At 𝗖𝗹𝗶𝗼 𝗜𝗻𝗻𝗼𝘃𝗮𝘁𝗲 𝗟𝗲𝗴𝗮𝗹 𝟮𝟬𝟮𝟱 𝗦𝘆𝗱𝗻𝗲𝘆, we spoke with Ronnie Gurion, COO of Clio, about the company’s next chapter — one shaped by bold acquisitions, AI innovation, and an unwavering focus on culture.

💡 𝗞𝗲𝘆 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗮𝘄𝗮𝘆𝘀:

👉 The vLex acquisition brings the world’s largest legal research database and AI assistant (Vincent AI) into Clio’s ecosystem.

👉 𝗖𝗹𝗶𝗼 𝗪𝗼𝗿𝗸 combines practice management, legal research, and AI-powered insights into one unified experience.

👉 The launch of 𝗖𝗹𝗶𝗼 𝗘𝗻𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗲 signals a strong push into the large-firm and in-house counsel market.

👉 Despite rapid growth, Clio’s foundation remains its 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗻𝗴, 𝗺𝗶𝘀𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻-𝗱𝗿𝗶𝘃𝗲𝗻 𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 — one that prizes alignment, integrity, and collaboration.

Ronnie summed it up best: “𝙒𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙣𝙚𝙖𝙧𝙡𝙮 500 𝙚𝙣𝙜𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙙𝙪𝙘𝙩 𝙡𝙚𝙖𝙙𝙚𝙧𝙨 𝙖𝙩 𝘾𝙡𝙞𝙤, 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙨𝙠𝙮’𝙨 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙢𝙞𝙩 — 𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝙞𝙩 𝙖𝙡𝙡 𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙧𝙩𝙨 𝙬𝙞𝙩𝙝 𝙨𝙩𝙖𝙮𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙬𝙝𝙤 𝙬𝙚 𝙖𝙧𝙚.”

Chapters

00:00Introduction and Overview of Clio's Strategy

02:38The VLex Acquisition and Its Significance

05:18Expanding into the Enterprise Market

07:53Maintaining Culture and Customer Satisfaction

#PeopleInLegal #Clio #LegalTech #AI #Innovation #ClioInnovateLegal #Leadership #LegalIndustry #Culture #AccessToJustice