Thatcher is home for graduation and we talk about it!

Our final episode of the season sharing our family traditions!

• First-generation college stories — how two very different paths shaped your adulthood.
• How expectations, finances, imposter syndrome, and identity play into the college journey.
• Why finding your people matters more than the school itself — and how community becomes belonging.
• Raising college students while still becoming adults yourselves — and how your sons’ college + military paths mirror and diverge from your own.
• What higher education is getting wrong, what it must do to survive, and why connection still matters more than policy.

“There are so many paths. And nobody gets to tell you which one is right except for you.”

• What parts of your own coming-of-age shaped who you are now?
• When did college first feel like yours — or when did it not?
• How do you talk to young adults about pathways: straight lines, zigzags, detours, or restarts?
• What role do people — not places — play in creating belonging?

• ASU’s charter: “We define ourselves by who we include and how they succeed.”
• Conversations on cultural identity, intersectionality, and inclusive teaching from Denise’s TEL 212 course.
• Reflections on the Gulf War and how early adulthood moments spark service, purpose, and identity.
• The evolving landscape of higher education — enrollment cliffs, NIL, mental health, and the future of the college experience.

Share your own college story:
What surprised you? What shaped you? What still lingers from that version of you today?

Tag us @theroughdraft or visit deniseleighwaters.com/ourroughdraft to join the conversation.

Denise tells the story of discovering — a decade later — that she hadn’t actually graduated due to a missing credit…and how a VHS-based child development class finally closed the loop. Sometimes the rough drafts of our lives really do come full circle.

This week, ask someone you love (a partner, a teenager, a friend) about their college expectations vs. their reality.
What did they imagine? What surprised them?
Let it open a conversation about identity, belonging, and the many paths into adulthood.

The Messy Middle

In this wide-ranging, candid episode of Our Rough Draft, Denise and Tim unpack what “middle life” feels like—from the frustration of overgeneralized research to the consequences of repeated moves and the friendships that survive seasons of change.

Denise reflects on her academic research (Cycle Zero complete!) and why she prefers “holding the process loosely” over blindly trusting one-size-fits-all systems. They talk about the Wenatchee move, what they learned (and what they regret), and how it exposed limits in both jobs and mental health. Moving through Seattle, Duval, Wenatchee, Gold Bar, Redmond, Woodinville, and finally Phoenix taught them hard lessons—rent first, read the neighborhood, and keep your priorities aligned.

The conversation turns to friendships: who stayed, who faded, and why some relationships are seasonal while others become foundations. They also share practical marriage lessons learned over 25 years—how to avoid “one-upmanship” in empathy, set simple rules about venting, and put the relationship first so the family (“the five”) can thrive.

Whether you’re mid-transition, questioning the advice you read online, or navigating relationships across life seasons, this episode offers honest reflection and practical tools for the messy middle.

• Week check-in: painting, bench-building, and creative breaks
• Cycle Zero research finished — why Denise prefers “hold it loosely” over “trust the process”
• Limits of research and why context and sampling matter (social science vs. clinical trials; gerontologist example)
• Regret vs. learning: the Wenatchee move, mental health, and the regret of waiting too long to speak up
• Identity and midlife: who you are vs. the role you play in a new job or season
• A timeline of moves and big rental lessons (rent before you buy; know the neighborhood)
• Hosting Young Life, noisy neighbors, and community moments that mattered
• Friendships that faded vs. friendships that deepened—why some people stay and others leave
• Strategies that have kept their marriage strong after 25 years: prioritizing the relationship, avoiding empathy competition, and using small communication shortcuts
• Stability redefined: the house as a base, not the whole story

• When someone gives blanket advice based on narrow research, how do you decide whether it applies to you?
• Have you ever stayed too long in a role or place before speaking up? What prompted you to change?
• How do seasons of friendship show up in your life—who has stayed through job changes, moves, or parenting transitions?
• What does “stability” mean to you: a place, a person, or both?

We’d love to hear about a season of change in your life—moves, job transitions, or friendships that shifted. Tag @theroughdraft or email us your story. Tell us: what became your base when everything else changed?

keywords gratitude, connection, Thanksgiving, family, change, art, personal growth, loss, traditions, reflection

In this episode, Denise & Tim explore themes of gratitude, connection, and the complexities of navigating change in life. They discuss personal experiences related to new job opportunities, the importance of small moments of joy, and the challenges of maintaining gratitude amidst loss. The conversation also delves into Thanksgiving traditions and the significance of family connections, culminating in a challenge for listeners to reflect on their own gratitude practices.

takeaways

• Tim is excited for her new job opportunity.
• Gratitude is about noticing and appreciating small moments.
• Navigating change can be both exciting and challenging.
• Thanksgiving can evoke complex feelings and memories.
• Finding joy in everyday moments is essential for well-being.
• Loss can lead to a deeper appreciation for what we have.
• Family traditions shape our experiences and memories.
• Gratitude practices can help shift our mindset.
• It's important to reflect on why we are grateful.
• Connection and conversation are vital for personal growth.

Sound Bites

• "I'm excited for what's to come."
• "I want to know they're okay."
• "Loss always means people to me."

Chapters

00:00Introduction to the Pajama and Wine Sessions

02:24Transitioning to New Beginnings

04:26Exploring Connection Through Conversation

07:48The Practice of Gratitude

11:28Finding Joy in Small Moments

19:05Traditions and Reflections on Thanksgiving

25:24Navigating Family Dynamics During Holidays

27:48Creating New Thanksgiving Traditions

29:34Reflections on Gratitude and Personal Growth

34:29The Complexity of Parenting and Growing Up

36:25Lessons from Loss and the Power of Gratitude

45:53Embracing Gratitude Year-Round

In this deeply personal episode, Denise and Tim share the origin story of their family — three boys, five tattoos, and a bond forged through deployment, surprise pregnancies, and the kind of vulnerability that makes a family stronger. From a secret pregnancy revealed on a honeymoon to a diagnosis that tested their resolve, this is the story of how they became the five.

• The Monday before the wedding surprise — and why Denise kept it secret
• Thatcher's arrival: 24+ hours of labor, emergency C-section, and a slow, beautiful adjustment to parenthood
• Deploying to Iraq while expecting Cooper — and how a two-year-old became the "man of the house"
• Five years between Cooper and Mason, and the fear that came with a Down syndrome diagnosis
• The concept of "the five" — not just a number, but a family foundation built on adversity and trust
• How their tight-knit family expands to welcome girlfriends, friends, and chosen family

"The five is more of a concept than it is a number... It's this family coming together, this family being its own support, its own strength, its own rock to stand on." — Tim Waters

• What would you do if you found out you were pregnant the week of your wedding? Would you tell your partner right away?
• How do deployments and long separations shape a family's identity and resilience?
• What does it mean to be "emotionally literate" as a parent — and how do you raise kids who are in touch with their feelings?
• When does a family number become a concept? Who gets to be part of your core group?

We'd love to hear your family origin story. Tag @theroughdraft and share how your family became who you are today — whether by choice, surprise, or something in between.

Denise sits across from Tim in their home studio and says, "I have no idea why I didn't tell you I was pregnant before the wedding." Tim laughs — after 25 years, it's finally safe to ask. They realize some of their biggest moments happened without a script: a secret kept, a deployment survived, a diagnosis faced together. The five didn't just happen. It was built, one vulnerable conversation at a time.

• Ask someone in your family to tell you their version of your birth story or how you joined the family
• If you have kids, share with them the story of how they came into your life — the good, the hard, and the real
• Think about your own "core group" — who are the people that make you feel known and safe? Tell them
• If you're interested in beta testing the Connection Cards launching in 2025, sign up at [website form link]

Episode Summary

In their new home podcast studio, Denise and Tim open up about what Veterans Day truly means — beyond the bumper stickers and well-intentioned “thank you for your service.” They explore the difference between Veterans Day and Memorial Day, the nuance of recognition versus understanding, and how storytelling keeps service experiences alive. Along the way, they reflect on Pat Tillman’s legacy at ASU, veteran benefits that miss the mark, and a powerful new film that gets it right.

What We Talk About

• What Veterans Day honors — and what it doesn’t
• The awkwardness and intent behind “thank you for your service”
• Pat Tillman’s story, ASU’s Salute to Service, and honoring every veteran
• The importance of listening to and preserving veterans’ stories
• Sheepdog — a film that portrays post-service life with truth and hope
• Why understanding matters more than a single day of recognition

Quote of the Episode

“I don’t want your support as much as I want your understanding.” — Tim Waters

Conversation Starters

• When someone thanks a veteran, what do they actually mean — and what could they ask instead?
• How can we preserve and share the stories of veterans in our own families or communities?
• What would it look like to honor service year-round, not just on Veterans Day?
• For educators and leaders: How might your institution balance visibility for one hero’s story with space for many others?

Resources & Mentions

Films & Viewing

• Sheepdog — A powerful drama about veterans returning home, capturing both struggle and redemption through community and therapy.

Books & Reading

• Tribe by Sebastian Junger — Why belonging and shared purpose are critical to veterans’ reintegration.
• Thank You for Your Service by David Finkel — A raw, compassionate portrait of soldiers after war.

Articles & Research

• “Pat Tillman’s Enduring Legacy and the ASU Veterans Center” — ASU News
• “The Science of Post-Traumatic Growth” — American Psychological Association

Tools & Practices

• Story Listening — Ask open-ended questions like, “What’s one story from your service you’d be willing to share today?” It builds trust and understanding.
• Reflection Prompt: What’s one story from your own life of service — military or otherwise — that shaped who you are today?

Connect & Reflect

We’d love to hear your story. Tag @theroughdraft and share what resonated, what helped, or who showed up for you.

Mini Moment

In the glow of their new studio lights, Denise and Tim talk about how a simple phrase — “thank you for your service” — can both connect and distance people. Tim pauses, remembering the 545 days he spent away from home, and Denise leans in. They both realize that what people crave most isn’t recognition — it’s to be known.

Try This

• Ask a veteran in your life one meaningful question and listen — really listen — to the answer.
• Support a veteran-owned business or organization this week.
• Write down one small act of service you can offer in your own community — then do it.

⚠️ Trigger Warning
This episode discusses suicidal thoughts and experiences. If you or someone you know is struggling, you are not alone. Help is available—call or text 988 to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline (available 24/7 in the U.S.). You can also visit 988lifeline.org for chat and resources.

With Veterans Day on the horizon, they dive into Tim’s 21 years in the U.S. Army and National Guard, exploring the reasons he joined at 26, the realities of deployment, and the invisible work of coming home changed.

From chaotic nights in Iraq to quiet commutes haunted by old instincts, this episode reveals the courage, complexity, and cost of serving something greater than yourself—and how identity, family, and purpose evolve when the mission ends.

• The meaning of service—and why it’s about more than uniforms or wars
• Joining the military later in life and finding purpose through the National Guard
• Deploying after 9/11: from training to real-world combat
• The moral weight of decisions made in chaos
• Life after service: rebuilding empathy, trust, and perspective
• How family, love, and community sustain you through the hard parts
• What it means to pass on a legacy of service to the next generation

“Being of use to something greater than yourself—that’s what service means to me.” — Tim Waters

• What does service mean to you? How do you show up for something bigger than yourself?
• Have you ever faced a moment that changed how you saw your purpose or identity?
• How can we better support veterans—and anyone—navigating big life transitions?

• 🎥 Sheepdog (2025), directed by Steven Grayhm — a gripping new drama following a decorated veteran court-ordered into treatment as he confronts trauma, forgiveness, and healing. Premiered at the 40th Annual Boston Film Festival and inspired by real stories of post-traumatic growth in veteran communities.
• Restoring the Soul of America — stories of veterans finding meaning beyond deployment.

Tools & Practices

• Practice gratitude for those who serve—write a thank-you letter, donate to veteran-support orgs, or volunteer locally.
• Reflection prompt: What’s one way you can contribute to the greater good in your community this week?

We’d love to hear your reflections on service. Tag @theroughdraft and share your story, or tell us about someone who’s inspired you to serve in your own way. Your words might help someone else remember they’re not alone.

Tim recalls his first mission as a National Guardsman—arriving to a protest site where “there were supposed to be thousands” but found only fifteen people and silence. Years later, that same sense of readiness turned to reality in Iraq, where one night’s split-second decision could mean life or loss. Denise and Tim talk about guilt, empathy, and what it means to “reset your filters” when coming home to a world that has kept moving.

• Reflect on your own form of service. Where do you contribute, and why does it matter to you?
• Make space for real stories—listen deeply, without comparison.