In this episode I speak with Professor Thomas Hartung.

Prof Hartung is Doerenkamp-Zbinden Chair of Evidence-based Toxicology at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and Professor of Pharmacology and Toxicology at the University of Konstanz. He also holds positions as Director of the Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing (CAAT) and Field Chief Editor of the academic journal Frontiers in AI, and was the 2025 recipient of the prestigious Peter Singer Prize.

We have a fascinating discussion about the breathtaking developments in AI and animal-free toxicology, and what this means for areas like drug development, chemical regulation, public health, animal testing, research ethics, the exposome, and the future of our society.

Our conversation covers:

• New Approach Methodologies (NAMs): the new automobile?
• Technological advances in microphysiological systems (MPS) and artificial intelligence (AI)
• The problems with animal models
• Challenges with validation and regulatory acceptance of NAMs
• The importance of education for uptake of NAMs
• Recent developments on US animal testing policy
• What is happening in the EU? Differences between regions and regulatory systems
• How AI is transforming research, and using it in day-to-day work
• Implications of AI for quality of scientific publications and risk of bias
• The Human Exposome Project: what is it, and how can AI help deliver it?
• Environmental persistence, the exposome, and the public discourse on chemicals

NAMazing: Déjà Vu at the lab bench - Why animal-free science is the new automobile - ScienceDirect

NIH stops funding new projects which focus only on animal testing | Cruelty Free International

The turning point: April 2025 marks historic shift in US animal testing policy | ALTEX - Alternatives to animal experimentation

REACH out-numbered! The future of REACH and animal numbers | ALTEX - Alternatives to animal experimentation

A systematic analysis of read-across adaptations in testing proposal evaluations by the European Chemicals Agency | ALTEX - Alternatives to animal experimentation

Guidance for Good In Vitro Reporting Standards (GIVReSt) – A draft for stakeholder discussion and background documentation | ALTEX - Alternatives to animal experimentation

Top 10 Emerging Technologies of 2024 | World Economic Forum

Assessing risk of bias in toxicological studies in the era of artificial intelligence | Archives of Toxicology

Is regulatory science ready for artificial intelligence? | npj Digital Medicine

How AI can deliver the Human Exposome Project | Nature Medicine

Stockholm Declaration on Chemistry for the Future

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In this episode I speak with Dr. Blanca Serrano Ramón, Secretary General of the European Centre for Ecotoxicology and Toxicology of Chemicals (ECETOC).

ECETOC is a scientific organisation that brings together experts from industry, academia and regulatory bodies to tackle challenges and deliver solutions for chemical safety.

Through its range of task forces, events and coordination activities, ECETOC is working across the full spectrum of chemical hazard and risk assessment topics, including endocrine disruption, new approach methodologies (NAMs), biodiversity, microplastics, persistence, and mobility (to name a few). They also develop and maintain a number of advanced risk assessment tools.

Our conversation covers

• What is ECETOC? What do they do?
• Why it's important to have dialogue between industry, academia and regulatory bodies
• Face-to-face vs online interactions
• Blanca’s background and journey to ECETOC
• Reflections on working at ECETOC
• ECETOC’s work on polymers
• The need to improve awareness and education in regulatory science
• Risk perception, trust in science, and science communication
• Two years on: the debate on conflicts of interest
• ECETOC associate membership

Home - ECETOC

ECETOC Workshop Report Highlights Advances and Challenges in Biodegradation Testing Guidelines - ECETOC

ECETOC task force proposes three-tiered approach to targeted information requirements for polymers - ECETOC

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In this episode I speak with Andrew Johnson, Environmental Research Scientist at the UK Centre for Ecology & Hydrology and Visiting Professor at Brunel University.

Andrew and I have a fascinating discussion about the current state of scientific research and public discourse on chemicals, and how a different approach might ultimately lead to better outcomes for wildlife.

Our conversation covers:

• Andrew's background and research interests
• What's wrong with the way we do research on chemicals?
• Endocrine disruption and uncovering population-relevant effects
• Insights from 30 years of monitoring data on macroinvertebrate diversity in English rivers
• The issue of combined sewer overflows
• Why monitoring data is so valuable, and so underappreciated
• Problems with the Water Framework Directive
• Risk assessment of chemicals and the mixture assessment factor (MAF)
• Are we prioritising the wrong things?
• Perverse incentives in research
• Science in the media and improving public discourse
• Advice for early career scientists

Zinc and Copper Have the Greatest Relative Importance for River Macroinvertebrate Richness at a National Scale | Environmental Science & Technology

Review of the Classification Framework for Ecological Status/Potential under the Water Environment (Water Framework Directive) England and Wales Regulations - WT15168

Are we going about chemical risk assessment for the aquatic environment the wrong way? | Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry | Oxford Academic

How to be a Better Scientist | Andrew Johnson, John Sumpter | Taylor & Francis

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In this episode I am joined by Todd Gouin of TG Environmental Research. Todd and I have a far-reaching discussion about the science and policy of chemicals in the environment.

Our conversation covers:

• Todd's career journey and the role of Don Mackay
• The concept of environmental persistence
• Tools for chemicals management and the evolving policy landscape
• Exposure assessment and risk assessment - the importance of considering exposure in addressing chemical risks
• How sustainability is changing the way we look at chemicals
• How science is produced, and communicated in the media
• How well do our tools fit what is happening in the environment?
• Biodiversity and the roles of chemical and non-chemical stressors
• Changes to policy around persistence - storing up problems for the future?
• Why biodegradability is important for consumer-facing sectors
• Persistence in the discussion on product circularity and innovation
• What's at stake? Balancing costs to society
• The need for multidisciplinary expertise and the role of industry

Recorded on 12th March 2025

Environmental Fate and Exposure - TG Environmental Research

In Memoriam: Don Mackay

Zinc and Copper Have the Greatest Relative Importance for River Macroinvertebrate Richness at a National Scale | Environmental Science & Technology

A review of DEB theory in assessing toxic effects of mixtures - ScienceDirect

Why environmental persistence should be a top priority for safe and sustainable products

The Wizard and the Prophet: Two Remarkable Scientists and Their Dueling Visions to Shape Tomorrow's World

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In this episode I share an article discussing the new hazard classes under the EU CLP regulation, and what this might mean for chemicals management more broadly.

As a reminder, the new CLP hazard classes are:

• Endocrine disruptors (ED) for human health and the environment;
• Persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic (PBT); very persistent and very bioaccumulative (vPvB); and
• Persistent, mobile and toxic (PMT); very persistent and very mobile (vPvM).

I also share some insights on what has been happening since the article was published.

Read the original article: How should we expect the new hazards under EU CLP to play out in practice? — Embark Chemical Consulting

Events I attended in May:

SETAC Europe 35th Annual Meeting

Designing for Circularity in Biodegradable Chemicals and Polymers | Sustainable Chemicals and Materials Manufacturing Hub

CHEMUK 2025 EXPO

Latest developments on the new CLP hazard classes:

ECHA clarification on deadlines - New hazard classes 2023 - ECHA

ECHA guidance on the new CLP hazards - Guidance on the Application of the CLP Criteria - Part 4/5: Environmental hazards and additional hazards

Persistence Assessment Tool (PAT) preprint - Developing a weight-of-evidence methodology for persistence assessment of substances in the environment | Earth, Space, and Environmental Chemistry | ChemRxiv | Cambridge Open Engage

ECHA webinar and Q&A - Events - ECHA

New hazard classes added to IUCLID - All news - ECHA

C&L Inventory moves over to ECHA CHEM - All news - ECHA

View the latest proposals for harmonised CLP classifications - Registry of CLH intentions until outcome - ECHA

CLH proposal for trifluoroacetic acid (TFA) - Registry of CLH intentions until outcome - ECHA

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I speak with Gabriel Sigmund, Assistant Professor at Wageningen University and Research, and board member of the International Panel on Chemical Pollution (IPCP).

We discuss:

• Gabriel’s background and research interests
• How the fate of charged organic compounds differs from neutral compounds
• The issue of mobility in the environment and the concern around persistent, mobile and toxic (PMT) substances
• Complex interactions controlling sorption and other fate processes in soil
• The ongoing importance of laboratory experiments in the age of AI
• Data availability and data quality challenges for persistence and mobility assessments
• Implications of the new PMT/vPvM hazard classes under the EU CLP regulation
• Simplification and essential use concepts for chemicals management
• The issue of extreme persistence and the concern around trifluoroacetic acid (TFA)
• Pesticides as a potential source of TFA to the environment
• How differences in worldviews influences the debate on chemicals
• Activities of the SETAC Persistence Science Interest Group

Apologies for some sound issues on this one.

Correction: During the discussion on TFA I commented that I had seen evidence in a presentation by Freeling that concentrations in plant samples had apparently increased four-fold between 2010 and 2020. Having revisited the published work (link below), the approximately four-fold increase was reported over the observation period 1989-2020.

Sorption and Mobility of Charged Organic Compounds: How to Confront and Overcome Limitations in Their Assessment | Environmental Science & Technology

The Global Threat from the Irreversible Accumulation of Trifluoroacetic Acid (TFA) | Environmental Science & Technology

Pesticides can be a substantial source of trifluoroacetate (TFA) to water resources - ScienceDirect

‘Alarming’ increase in levels of forever chemical TFA found in European wines | Pfas | The Guardian

Levels and Temporal Trends of Trifluoroacetate (TFA) in Archived Plants: Evidence for Increasing Emissions of Gaseous TFA Precursors over the Last Decades | Environmental Science & Technology Letters

Pollution is Colonialism - book by Max Liboiron (2021)

SETAC Persistence Science Interest Group

Webinar recording: Addressing Extreme Persistence – Identification, Behavior and Management of “Forever Chemicals” Beyond PFAS

Upcoming webinar: How to increase understanding of microbial inocula in biodegradation testing?

SETAC Europe 35th Annual Meeting

In Memoriam: John Parsons

Themed collection: Transformation Products and Mixtures – Environmental Science: Processes & Impacts

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Ahead of the Society of Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry (SETAC) annual European conference in Vienna (11-15th May), I caught up with Sabine Apitz, SETAC Europe President and Editor-in-Chief of the academic journal Integrated Environmental Assessment and Management (IEAM).

Sabine and I had a fascinating discussion about environmental science, the scientific community, and the emergence and application of scientific knowledge. We discussed some of the pressing issues and challenges facing the SETAC community, and society at large. Sabine also shared some of what we could look forward to at the upcoming Vienna conference and the 9th SETAC World Congress (and first to be held in Africa) later this year.

Our conversation covers:

• Sabine’s background and career journey
• The emergence and application of scientific knowledge
• Using tools and models to inform environmental policy, and appreciating their limitations
• Sabine’s experience working as an independent consultant
• The role of scientists from different backgrounds in science and policy discussions
• Public representation at SETAC and in broader environmental discourse
• Reflections on the current political environment for science and society at large
• Dealing with complexity in trying to understand ecosystems
• Sabine’s own experience with podcasting
• An unexpected finding from an investigation into hygiene products
• Upcoming SETAC events – Vienna and Johannesburg

This is a great one for anyone interested in learning more about SETAC, the organisation that brings together scientists from across disciplines to study the issue of chemicals in the environment and to inform science-based environmental decisions.

Links from the discussion:

SETAC website: SETAC

Vienna conference: SETAC Europe 35th Annual Meeting

World Congress event: SETAC 9th World Congress

IEAM academic journal: Integrated Environmental Assessment and Management | Oxford Academic

Sabine's editorial (published in 2017): Science, antiscience, and environmental decision making: A call to action | Integrated Environmental Assessment and Management | Oxford Academic

(co-authors: Thomas Backhaus, Peter M Chapman, Wayne Landis, Glenn Suter)

Sabine's podcast: Join the Dots | jointhedots

(co-hosts: Ece Ozdemiroglu and Jill Duggan)

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In this episode I speak with Delina Lyon, Science Executive for Environment at Concawe.

Del and I dive deep into the regulatory assessment of complex substances. This issue still presents a wicked challenge for industry and regulators alike, and Concawe's work is right at the forefront of this.

Our conversation covers:

• What is Concawe?
• Del's role at Concawe
• Environmental assessment of petroleum substances under REACH
• Del's early career and switch from academia to industry
• Reflections on the science-policy interface
• Developments in regulatory testing and assessment
• Conflicts of interest and the role of industry scientists
• The wicked problem of complex substances (UVCBs)
• Challenges with biodegradation testing
• Weight of evidence and the Persistence Assessment Tool (PAT)
• The hydrocarbon block method and related tools PETROTOX and PETRORISK
• Persistence, bioaccumulation and toxicity (PBT) assessments and the new PMT concept

Concawe website

Persistence Assessment Tool (PAT)

PETROTOX tool - Concawe

PETRORISK tool - Concawe

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