Episodes

  • 26. Unweirding Change with Michael Bungay Stanier

    26. Unweirding Change with Michael Bungay Stanier
    May 19 2025
    Despite an explosion of frameworks, toolkits, and “best practices,” the success rate of organizational change hasn’t improved in over a decade. For all the decks, comms plans, and transformation initiatives being sold, most companies still find themselves stuck, repeating the same plays and hoping for different results. This week, Rodney Evans welcomes back Michael Bungay Stanier—best-selling author, host of the new podcast Change Signal, and longtime friend of the show—who’s on a mission to cut through the noise and find what actually works. They explore why change still feels so weird, the real leverage points for shifting individual and organizational behavior, and whether it’s finally time to retire “change management” as we know it. Get a copy of Michael's change quadrants he talks about in this episode here: Michael's quadrants. Learn more about Michael: Follow him on LinkedIn Listen to his podcast, Change Signal. Subscribe to his newsletter, The Change Signal. Check out his website, MBS.works See his two prior appearances on our show, BNW Ep. 19 and BNW Ep. 75. -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? ⁠Sign up here⁠. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: ⁠LinkedIn⁠ ⁠Instagram⁠ -------------------------------- Mentioned references: Jason Fox's episode: AWWTR Ep. 17 John Kotter and the 8 Steps Depthfinding and the "Zones" Ron Heifetz Immunity to Change, book by Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey Peter Block Winston Churchill "We Shape Our Buildings" Maslow's hierarchy of needs Larissa Conte: BNW Ep. 151 Katie Milkman: Change Signal Ep. 2 Caroline Webb: Change Signal Ep. 5 Timestamps: 00:00 Intro + Check-In: Do you have a non-work related goal that you’re working towards right now? 9:59 Michael’s journey to un-weird change 14:49 Michael’s individual and organizational unlocks for change 21:24 Importance of strong foundational habits to succeed in change work 25:37 Understanding of power dynamics in change work 33:27 Outdated change mindsets to let go of 38:38 Rodney and Michael’s takeaways 40:28 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your coworkers! Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠⁠Coupe Studios⁠⁠.
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    43 mins
  • Depthfinding: Putting It All Into Practice

    Depthfinding: Putting It All Into Practice
    May 5 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam reflect on what they’ve learned over the course of this eight-part miniseries—about the framework, their own Midnight Zones, and what it means to navigate complexity amidst uncertainty. They share how their thinking has evolved since launching the series, when Depthfinding is most useful (and when it’s not), and why every organization eventually has to ask: Who are we designing for? The end of the miniseries isn’t the end of Depthfinding. Now it’s time for you to dive in. Download the Depthfinding guide⁠ to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: ⁠theready.com/depthfinding⁠ -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? ⁠Sign up here⁠. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: ⁠LinkedIn⁠ ⁠Instagram⁠ -------------------------------- Mentioned references: Bob Vila The Ready's OS Canvas "strategy pancakes": AWWTR Ep. 2 "even/overs": BNW Ep. 44 "op rhythm": BNW Ep. 118 Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio 00:00 Intro + Check-In: What is the warning label on the back of your box? 04:26 Depthfinding’s impact on our work 08:19 New discoveries from the miniseries 13:50 Limitations of Depthfinding 16:34 Troubleshooting consultants stuck in one zone 22:14 What’s next for Depthfinding 25:14 What’s next for the podcast 27:11 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your colleagues This episode's theme music is ⁠Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio⁠. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠Coupe Studios⁠.
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    29 mins
  • Depthfinding: From Leadership to Stewardship

    Depthfinding: From Leadership to Stewardship
    Apr 21 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam dive into one of the most pivotal (and misunderstood) aspects of the framework: stewardship. Depthfinding is built on the idea that organizations are like oceans, not aquariums. That means leaders have to show up in an entirely new way—not as a boss, a hero, or a disciplinarian, but as someone responsible for the ongoing health of a complex system. Embracing stewardship can be an uphill battle thanks to the ghosts of leadership past and the inner work required to show up well in complexity. But when facing down uncertainty, building the conditions for resilience and learning to steward across each Depthfinding zone offers a new way forward. Get the PDF Rodney and Sam talk about in this episode Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: "Intelligence vs information age" Jack Welch Model T assembly line efficiency gains Henry Ford quote about hands: The Future of Management, by Gary Hamel connection between Gantt chart and slavery Frederick Winslow Taylor MRI study about how power impacts your brain Employee Owned Trust (EOT) 00:00 Intro + Check-In: What is an underrated condiment? 03:46 Stewardship is how to put Depthfinding into action 08:32 Leadership ghosts of the industrial age: Henry Ford and the org chart 15:10 Leadership ghosts of the information age: Jack Welch and cult of personality 20:11 De-centering leaders and re-centering the organization for the future 23:50 Stewardship in the Midnight Zone playbook 28:13 Leaders modeling Midnight Zone moves is critical 30:29 Stewardship in the Twilight Zone playbook 35:46 Stewardship in the Sunshine Zone playbook 38:13 Stewardship in the Sky playbook 43:40 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share this episode with your colleagues! This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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    46 mins
  • Depthfinding: Making Sense of This Moment

    Depthfinding: Making Sense of This Moment
    Apr 7 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam zoom out. Because here’s the truth: the experience the last few months in the U.S.? It’s not an exception. It’s the environment we’re working in now. From top-down compliance crackdowns to the resurrection of five-layer approval chains, we’re watching organizations double down on control just as the world demands more adaptability. Many teams feel stuck waiting for the storm to pass—without realizing that this is the weather now. In this episode, we unpack what’s going on, what it means to lead when volatility is the default, and how to stop standing still and get moving. Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: Mongolian-Manchurian grassland "USAID cuts" "former federal employees as foreign intelligence targets" "diversity in teams leads to higher performing teams" "permacrisis article" Overton window Critical Uncertainties (a Liberating Structure) 00:00 Intro + Check-In: What’s a notable wildlife encounter you’ve had? 05:03 Understanding the moment we’re in 07:01 Efficiency in principle vs execution 11:31 Broad cuts that don’t acknowledge complexity 14:57 Midnight Zone churn 19:29 Big sky mandates that are a distraction from real work 28:18 Navigating the changing sky within your organization 34:11 Compounding crises are likely, plan for uncertainty 38:34 Parting thoughts 39:33 Wrap up: leave us a review and send us your questions! This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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    42 mins
  • Brave New Work: Making Layoffs More Human [Rebroadcast]

    Brave New Work: Making Layoffs More Human [Rebroadcast]
    Mar 24 2025
    Rebroadcast note: With everything happening in the world right now, we're taking a quick break from our miniseries to reshare this episode about layoffs. Because sometimes large layoffs are necessary, but they shouldn't be the norm and those being let go should still be treated like humans, rather than a line on a spreadsheet. If you listened the first time around, share this episode with someone in your network who might need it (especially if they're a government employee 😬). We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode. -------------------------------- We won’t mince words: Layoffs suck. They heap very real stress and chaos onto very real people’s lives. And as we’ve seen reported lately, big waves of layoffs are hitting several companies—and thousands of people—hard right now. This pile of not-good news sparked some questions for us, like: Why are layoffs a go-to cost-cutting lever? What pre-layoff org design decisions put employers and employees in this gnarly position? And why does every CEO letter announcing mass layoffs sound like it was written by the same robot? In today’s episode, Aaron and Rodney, who’ve been on both sides of the layoff aisle, spend time with these queries and dig into: The all-around messiness of the traditional layoff process Why companies default to short-term thinking when the boom times boom Dehumanizing layoff practices we should shelve for good Creating clear containers and agreements for handling layoffs How we could design a layoff moment that’s truly people-positive -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: "RIFs" ConvertKit episode: BNW Ep. 36 with Nathan Barry "life stress inventories": Holmes and Rahe stress scale Office Space, 1999 movie Up in the Air, 2009 movie
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    54 mins
  • Depthfinding: The Midnight Zone - Experience, Emotions, and Reactions at Work

    Depthfinding: The Midnight Zone - Experience, Emotions, and Reactions at Work
    Mar 10 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam dive into the Midnight Zone—the deepest layer of organizational life, where the lived experiences, emotions, and unspoken reactions of individuals shape everything that happens above. While many organizations focus on surface-level solutions, ignoring the human realities of work leads to burnout, disengagement, and resistance to change. Leaders who acknowledge and engage with the Midnight Zone create organizations where people feel seen, supported, and empowered to contribute fully. Understanding the emotional undercurrents of work isn’t just about empathy—it’s about unlocking real, lasting transformation. Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: First depthfinding episode Conscious Leadership Group ACT Matrix Iceberg model "workers deriving identify from their job" "knowledge work is at peak inefficiency" - Jared Spataro from Microsoft at Charter's "Leading with AI" summit in Jan 2025. See his statements about 60% of a knowledge worker's time being spent on overhead Gareth's episode: BNW Ep. 5 with Dr. Gareth Holman This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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    49 mins
  • Depthfinding: Twilight Zone - Where Work Happens

    Depthfinding: Twilight Zone - Where Work Happens
    Feb 24 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam step into the Twilight Zone—the often-overlooked but deeply influential space where teams navigate the “how” of work—the “how” of collaborating, meeting, deciding, and experimenting. Many organizations put all or most of their focus on visible outputs and assets, but the rubber meets the road in the Twilight Zone. It’s the organizational depth where strategy actually gets executed—which means it’s worthy of more than a passing glance. When an important initiative stalls out, when teams side-eye change, when a leadership team’s decisions never translate into clear and meaningful action, it’s time to investigate the Twilight Zone. Leaders who want real progress—not just compliance—must foster cross-functional collaboration and create space for meaningful iteration. Because strategy isn’t about what’s declared. It’s about what actually happens. Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: Twilight Zone, tv show layers of the ocean sea anemone The Mom Test, book by Rob Fitzpatrick Liberating Structures: BNW Ep. 49 with Keith McCandless "IDM" (Integrated Decision Making): BNW Ep. 43 This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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    49 mins
  • Depthfinding: Sunshine Zone - Artifacts, Org Charts, and Metrics

    Depthfinding: Sunshine Zone - Artifacts, Org Charts, and Metrics
    Feb 10 2025
    In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges. This week, Rodney and Sam dive into the Sunshine Zone—the highly visible work of organizations, from strategy decks and OKRs to mission statements and financial targets. While these elements are easy to track and refine, spending too much time in the Sunshine Zone often leads to performative goal setting, misaligned priorities, and a disconnect from the deeper work that actually drives change. Leaders who want real progress—not just a well-polished plan—need to balance the visible with the essential. Cultivating adaptability, feedback loops, and space for creative, cross-functional work is the key to moving beyond surface-level success. Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it. Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding -------------------------------- Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here. Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery: LinkedIn Instagram -------------------------------- Mentioned references: EBITDA ACT Matrix "womperjawed" "90% of executives failing to reach strategic goals" operating rhythm: BNW Ep. 118 Deming quote "Bach suite" SMART goals This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio. Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.
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    48 mins