Dylan Mulvaney’s “Paper Doll” is the three-dimensional story of a woman in transition | Audible.au
Dylan Mulvaney’s “Paper Doll” is the three-dimensional story of a woman in transition
The trans icon talks about resolving her quarter-life crisis, exploring an edgier version of herself, what she learned from Beergate, and what she’s excited to do next.
Note: Text has been lightly edited for clarity and does not match audio exactly.
Michael Collina: Hi, listeners. This is Audible Editor Michael Collina, and today I'm thrilled to be speaking with the one and only Dylan Mulvaney. Dylan is an actress, comic, and the creator of the viral Days of Girlhood series on TikTok, where she chronicled her transition with her followers. And today she's here to talk about her new audiobook, . Welcome, Dylan.
Dylan Mulvaney: Oh, my God, that was such a lovely intro. Thank you, Michael.
MC: Of course. It's such an honor to have you here today. As I just mentioned, you are already a successful influencer, comic, actress, and performer. But Paper Doll is your debut book. How does it feel to finally have it out in the world?
DM: Oh, my God, I think it's kind of like watching your child go out maybe into their first dance recital, because I am sitting on the edge of my seat like a stage mom, kind of just hoping for the best. But I think I also realized that I've had almost three years shaping this and creating it and getting to enjoy it, so it's time for other people to enjoy it, too, hopefully. I want to make peace with whatever the world takes it as, but know that I enjoyed my time with it and still do.
MC: I'm so glad to hear that. It was absolutely phenomenal, I just want to say.
DM: Oh, thank you.
MC: I loved it so much. You really just put everything out there. You are so honest. You are so authentic. It's so perfectly you. But I had to ask, what inspired the title, Paper Doll?
DM: Oh, my gosh, the title actually came after writing the whole book. I originally thought maybe it would be called Days of Girlhood when I sold it two and a half years ago. And then I had to go write the book and it became something very different. I just was kind of throwing words out there on a page to see what might spark. And obviously paper is like the paper of a book. Doll is a term that trans women often use for each other, like the dolls. And I love Paper Doll because it feels very retro and kind of my aesthetic. But it kind of hints to this idea of us being two-dimensional depictions versus the full three-dimensional humans that we are. I think it's really inclusive of my experience online and people kind of putting these ideas of what they think I am versus what I actually am. So, the book is very much me trying things on myself versus the world putting them onto me.
And then the little subtitle, “Notes from a late bloomer,” just kind of felt very indicative of that. This is not an all-encompassing memoir, it's truly like a flash in time of my quarter-life, mid-twenties crisis. I think that late bloomer is very much showing that I am still figuring things out. I'm new to a lot of things, I'm still learning. There's a lot of learning happening in the book. But it's also an adult book. I'm really excited for people to see kind of a slightly edgier, raunchier version to me than maybe what they've known from before.
MC: I think most exciting, too, is you also perform the audiobook. What was it like getting into the booth and giving voice to your story?
DM: Oh, that was so intimidating. I will say, it is way harder than I thought it was going to be. I spend my whole day talking, and so I thought I would be like a pro. And I love reading, so I'm used to looking over lines on a page or memorizing. But I literally had to start and stop like almost every other sentence because, I think with an audiobook, you're telling such a specific story in a way that, because it was my own, I felt even more protective over how I was sharing things. I know that tone can have so much to do with how someone understands a joke or knowing that it's truly earnest or whatever it was I was trying to depict. I think that, God, it really took a whole week in there.
"It was like therapy and I was the therapist and the patient... Writing for me has always been the clearest way to get how I'm feeling."
It was also interesting because I hadn't read the book in a few months between finishing it and then recording the audio, and it kind of made me fall in love with it all over again. I'm a huge fan of audiobooks. I've always kind of loved them, even a little bit more than physical copies, and especially when it comes to female-driven memoirs, because it just comes alive. I think especially if there's humor, you can hear it in my own voice. I think the writing is so much in my own voice that it was just so fun. I would love to play with voiceover now. I would love to do maybe an audiobook or record for someone who is different than me or who wrote a different book. It was just really special.
MC: I'm so glad to hear that. I'm also so glad that you decided to perform this because it really is so powerful in your voice coming directly from you. It still would've been fantastic performed by someone else, but the fact that it's your voice in our headphones is just perfect. It's the perfect way to listen and experience it. How did narrating compare to creating content for social media or getting up on a stage in front of an audience? Did you find you needed to approach it a little differently?
DM: My favorite type of performing, really, is on stage. I came from musical theater. I will say, those skills and having that BFA definitely helped in the audio booth. It was really isolating. I do think that's what's tricky, it was just me and a sound designer, and having to give yourself your own kind of praise or critique while it's happening. Luckily, I feel like I know myself so well and I love storytelling, so I think I was able to get in there and do it.
I'm trying to think, too, who would I have wanted to do the audiobook if not me. I think it would be either Amy Poehler or maybe Alan Cumming, I think could have done a great audio version of Paper Doll. Like, thinking about Alan Cumming talking about growing boobs and taking hormones in a Scottish accent would be really amazing.
MC: That would be. No, you're right. And throughout Paper Doll, I also love the way you spoke about your experiences with therapy and mental health, especially in regards to your views on parts work and caring for different aspects of yourself. So, with that in mind, how are Woo-Woo Dylan and Party Dylan doing now that you're in year three of womanhood and kicking off your book tour?
DM: It's funny you ask. Woo-Woo Dylan had kind of taken a back seat until just last night. I went to a psychic. I was out to dinner with a friend and we were walking, we were like, "Oh, my God, there's a light on. It says ‘Open.’" And so Woo-Woo Dylan got her moment last night. Regrettably, it wasn't a great reading. But then Party Dylan I think in so many ways is alive and well. I've found so much joy in getting to figure out the difference between going to an event for fun versus going for work. I went to the SAG Awards on Sunday, and I left early to go to a crab boil with my date Lily, who's my best friend. She's the best plus-one. And that was Party Dylan being like, "Let's go get some crab and eat it with our hands."
I think that right now feels pretty Work Dylan-driven with the press of the book and making sure that I am getting it out there in all the right ways. It's also a scary time. I think that a lot of people are trying to make me to be like Political Dylan at the moment, and I really try to push back on that because I don't see myself as an activist. But it's also such an important time to advocate for one's own community. I think there's ebbs and flows there, but I'm a very zero-to-100 person, so I always feel like I exist in one mindset at a time.
MC: That totally makes sense. And as you mentioned in Paper Doll, it was a very big part of how you were coping after Beergate. So, I was like, "I needed to check in and see how they were doing." And on that topic, you're obviously no stranger to the spotlight, but you are so incredibly open and honest in this book. Both about the highs and lows of fame, how you didn't actually want to be this famous, but also about the things you were a little more hesitant to share with your TikTok followers, especially after Beergate. What was it like revisiting those moments while you were writing and performing? Did you find that process cathartic at all?
DM: Oh, my God, it was like therapy and I was the therapist and the patient. But I think that writing for me has always been kind of the clearest way to get how I'm feeling. Even a lot of the times before I go to make a TikTok video, I'll write it out beforehand. Because I think words are so much clearer, often, than emotion. I very much was going through a lot of darkness during Beergate and in the creating of this book. But now when I read it, I read it with such a different perspective, that of someone who has learned not only from my mistakes but can approach myself, my past self, with the kindness that I don't think I had when I was writing it. In regards to forgiving myself for things, for letting go, I think that it really was the ticket to feeling like my authentic self again.
"I'm grateful for all the humans that have followed my journey and continue to follow me for the right reasons. Because I think a lot of people enjoy trans sensationalism or they want to know about your body or your relationships, your sexuality, but they don't really care about the actual fibers and fabric of you as a human."
MC: I'm so glad to hear that because you definitely deserve and should feel like your authentic self. I'm so glad you’re there and doing better than you were in that moment.
DM: Thank you
MC: Throughout the book, you also have a lot of reflections. There were a lot of things you did learn that you shared. But is there one thing in particular that you wish you could tell a younger Dylan looking back now?
DM: If I could tell younger Dylan anything, there's a few things that I would've asked her to do, which was properly learn piano and French, as frustrating as they are. I would tell my younger self to not strip away all of the best parts that were so alive and feminine and camp, and not to feel like I needed to become a different character than the authentic me that was so epic. I think I really took for granted being this human being that I am, and I ran from that for a long time. I find it almost funny when people say, "We see you as a character or a caricature of something," because that's actually what I was before my transition. That was someone else entirely that hadn't fully been able to find my full essence. And now I'm there and I just wish that my younger self would've been just as excited as I am now to be this human that is hyperfeminine, that is messy, that is funny and stupid, and all of the things I felt really shamed for for a long time. And I don't want that kid to feel ashamed.
MC: That is so beautifully said, and 100 percent yes, you are so right. I'm so glad you don't feel that shame. I really hope that you just keep continuing upward and continue growing and being confident and so proud of who you are, because I know so many people can see that greatness in you. And I'm so glad that you can now too.
DM: Oh, I appreciate you.
MC: Oh, I appreciate you and everything you do. And since you did talk about activism a little bit, while most of this book is focused on your own experiences and feelings over the past few years, you also shine a little bit of a light on what it's like behind the scenes working on brand deals. While this really shouldn't fall on you, is there anything that you would recommend to brands to better represent and work with the LGBTQIA+ community and trans folks in particular?
DM: Well, I'll say from my personal experience, trans people like beer too. Trans people use cleaning products and we shop at almost every store. I think that a lot of humans in marketing, especially since the Beergate of it all, have been operating out of fear and out of conforming to folks who are really loud but who I believe to be in the minority of what the general acceptance is of folks like me and of queer people, at the very least. I think that it would be such a disservice not only to their business but just to their lives and their unique opportunity to help better culture and move it along in the right ways, because they do have quite a bit of power. I think it's important for them to know just how meaningful these partnerships can look like.
Now I'm a lot more thoughtful as far as how and who I partner with. I think that should go the same with the way that they run their businesses. They can't be scared and they can't be doing things for the wrong reasons. It needs to be for the right ones. I still want to believe that people, businesses, can make money but still also care about its employees and doing the [right thing]. So that's something that, even after everything that I went through with that situation, I still feel very optimistic about.
MC: I'm right there with you. I agree wholeheartedly. And I'm hopeful. On that topic, I also loved hearing about all of your famous friends, many of whom have audiobooks of their own. Did you get any advice from them before you started writing?
DM: Oh, my God, that's a really good question. Who did I talk to about audiobooks? I talked to my director Tim from a show called F*GHAG over in the Edinburgh Fringe. And we talked a lot about kind of the energy that I wanted to bring to things. I think sometimes I do feel guilty, like going to Amy Poehler or going to Lena Dunham or whoever it might've been, and I try to be mindful of how much advice I'm asking for on a regular basis. I think because I've listened to so many audiobooks, I think I trusted myself enough to do it without too much guidance.
"I remember Laverne Cox on the Grammy red carpet being like, 'You can keep some things for yourself.' I really took that as a gift and I ran with that... It feels like I've taken back ownership over my identity in a way."
One of my favorite audiobooks is Glennon Doyle's Untamed, and I've gotten to know her a bit. It's also such a crazy experience to have listened to her audiobook and then gotten to know her, and then I did listen again. That's one of my favorite parts of these past few years is getting to connect with the people that I've always looked up to or have been role models for me.
MC: I love that so much. And one of the other things that struck me was that you described a lot of your now-friends as icons when you were first meeting them. What has it been like realizing that you have now become that same level of icon to so many people?
DM: Oh, my God, I do not believe that for a second. It throws me if people come up to me. I still sometimes will be like, "Oh, did I go to high school with them or…?" I always want to operate from a place of gratitude, because I think I grew up looking at a lot of the times it was characters on a screen. And now the fact that a lot of young people are looking to social media to find their icons is so crazy. But it's also exciting because I think that means that we're being exposed to a lot of humans that we probably wouldn't have been before. So, I feel really grateful because, honestly, if it wasn't for social media, I probably would not have gotten this book deal and been able to do this.
I'm grateful for all the humans that have followed my journey and continue to follow me for the right reasons. Because I think a lot of people enjoy trans sensationalism or they want to know about your body or your relationships, your sexuality, but they don't really care about the actual fibers and fabric of you as a human. And now when I get to share my love of musical theater or my jokes or my fashion, it feels like the right people are finding it and not just the general public that wants the goody stuff.
MC: Absolutely. Because a lot of that stuff is incredibly private. That's your business. You don't need to share that. And you shouldn't feel like you need to share that unless you want to. That is all you, it is totally your decision. It's no one else's business. I'm so glad throughout Paper Doll, especially, you really mention that a lot. You are getting so much better at creating those boundaries for yourself and you're keeping more aspects of your transition for yourself, which is absolutely warranted, and I think how it should be. It's your journey and your choice to share what you want to share with folks.
DM: Thank you. Yeah, I remember Laverne Cox on the Grammy red carpet being like, "You can keep some things for yourself." I really took that as a gift and I ran with that. And now there are moments of my transition that I have kept private and I'm still deciding like, "Ooh, how am I going to share them?” Some of them ended up in the book. Some of them I probably never will share, which feels really yummy too.It feels like I've taken back ownership over my identity in a way.
MC: I love that for you. And aside from getting ready to share this book with the world, are there any other projects that you're currently working on that you can share with us? Give us a little behind the scenes peek?
DM: Oh, my God. Honey, yes, I have my podcast that's going to be starting up in the next month or two. I am still working on my one-woman show and I've been editing that. We're hoping to bring that to America maybe later this year. I am starting to do some hosting, which is really exciting, and plenty of auditions and I think it would be really special. I think being me is fun, but I would love to go play a character maybe on stage at some point. My year goal is like, “Does whatever I'm doing help me become a Broadway diva?” So that's been the question on my mind and the one that I ask myself. I think theater feels really safe right now, for me at least, especially amongst such a crazy political climate and kind of a scary time. I always feel my safest when I'm either on stage or watching something on stage.
MC: I am so ready for you to be the Broadway diva of your dreams, and I will absolutely come cheer you on.
DM: Oh, my God, thank you.
MC: And that actually wraps up all of the questions I had today. But I did want to open it back up to you and see if there's anything else you would like to share with your listeners about Paper Doll.
DM: Oh, you know what's funny? I did think about with the audiobook, I think I went in there originally, and sometimes, especially when you're just listening to the sound of your own voice, you kind of try to alter it in a way. And I kind of started to put a little pitch up [talks in higher voice], and then I totally had to relax and just talk the way that I'm supposed to talk. And so I want whoever's listening to know that that is 100 percent the version of me that was writing this book and the one that I am with my friends. And, oh, I'm just so excited. I actually haven't listened to it. I'm still waiting to listen to it myself. So, that is something that I think is going to be a huge happy thing this year.
I am also excited, I have a book club and we've been picking a lot of really fun queer books. Jonathan Van Ness has a new book coming out, as a co-author. My celebrity life coach, Mory Fontanez, has a book coming out the same day as mine called Higher Self. I can't wait to just keep reading and keep listening, and Audible has been a huge part of that for me. So, I'm really happy and grateful.
MC: Oh, I love that so much. I always love it when folks love Audible and audiobooks.
DM: And you guys have that theater in New York that's so iconic.
MC: Yes. Minetta Lane.
DM: It's become such a thing.
MC: Audible Theater. I love it.
DM: I love it.
MC: Well, thank you so much for taking the time today, Dylan. It has been so wonderful speaking with you about audiobooks and your life and everything that you've been up to.
DM: Thank you, Michael.
MC: Thank you so much, Dylan. And listeners, Paper Doll, written and performed by Dylan Mulvaney herself, is available on Audible now.
