On this episode of Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing, Jonathan Greene sits down with Joel Kraut, co-founder and managing director of BRRRR Loans, to explore the realities of long-term real estate investing, private lending, and sustainable financial decision-making. Drawing on decades of experience as an investor, lender, and former Wall Street trader, Joel challenges popular investing shortcuts and explains why slowing down and mastering fundamentals is often the fastest path to real wealth.

The conversation dives deep into the limitations of the FIRE movement, the dangers of over-leverage, and how emotional decision-making derails otherwise solid deals. Joel shares lessons from market cycles, early BRRRR strategies, and hard-earned mistakes, emphasizing that success in real estate is far more about people, preparation, and honesty than chasing the newest strategy or acronym.

Listeners will gain practical insight into what lenders actually look for in borrowers, how to present deals professionally, why organization and credit discipline matter, and how long-term relationships—not hype—drive consistent success in real estate.

• Why the FIRE movement often overlooks patience and foundational investing

• How Joel's early real estate and refinancing experience shaped his lending philosophy

• The real dangers of over-leverage and market-specific concentration risk

• What private lenders look for beyond credit scores and projections

• Why honesty, preparation, and organization matter more than clever deal structures

• How long-term relationships create repeat business and lasting wealth

Follow and Review
If you enjoy the show, please follow Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing on Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review. It helps other listeners discover these conversations and supports the show's growth.

Connect with Joel:

Website: http://www.brrrr.com/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@BrrrrLoans

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brrrrloans/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brrrr_loans/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelbrrrr/?hl=en

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joel-kraut/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@brrrr_loans

Connect with Jonathan:

Website - www.streamlined.properties

YouTube - www.youtube.com/c/JonathanGreeneRE/videos

Instagram - www.instagram.com/trustgreene

Instagram - www.instagram.com/streamlinedproperties

Zillow - www.zillow.com/profile/streamlinen​j

Bigger Pockets - www.biggerpockets.com/users/jonathangreene

Facebook - www.facebook.com/streamlinedproperties

Email - info@streamlined.properties

This episode was produced by Outlier Audio.

On this episode of Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing, Jonathan Greene sits down with Steve Afra, a nationally recognized real estate finance expert, private lender, and co-founder of Nvestor Funding. Steve shares how growing up in New York's old-school real estate world shaped his approach to lending, underwriting, and relationships, starting with working alongside his father rehabbing HUD homes and later moving into mortgage lending at a young age.

The conversation dives deep into the realities of private lending, including why defaults are rarely about fraud, how life events impact borrowers, and why the goal is always to work deals out—not take properties back. Steve explains what experienced lenders actually look for in borrowers, why presentation and honesty matter more than perfect credit, and how emotional decision-making and best-case-scenario underwriting derail otherwise viable projects.

Listeners will walk away with practical insights on evaluating deals conservatively, sourcing opportunities the old-school way, building trust through relationships, and why patience, persistence, and empathy remain the most underrated advantages in real estate investing today.

In this episode, you will hear:

• How Steve got started in real estate and lending at a young age in New York

• Why private lenders are not "loan-to-own" and actively avoid foreclosures

• What lenders really look for beyond credit scores and financials

• Why presentation, track record, and worst-case underwriting matter

• The dangers of emotional investing and best-case-scenario comps

• How old-school relationship building still beats technology-only strategies

Follow and Review
If you enjoy the show, please follow Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing on Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review. It helps other listeners discover these conversations and supports the show's growth.

Connect with Steve

Website: https://thesteveafra.com/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@afrasteve

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/steve.afra.18

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesteveafra

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveafra/

Website: https://nvestorfunding.com/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@afrasteve

Connect with Jonathan:

Website - www.streamlined.properties

YouTube - www.youtube.com/c/JonathanGreeneRE/videos

Instagram - www.instagram.com/trustgreene

Instagram - www.instagram.com/streamlinedproperties

Zillow - www.zillow.com/profile/streamlinen​j

Bigger Pockets - www.biggerpockets.com/users/jonathangreene

Facebook - www.facebook.com/streamlinedproperties

Email - info@streamlined.properties

This episode was produced by Outlier Audio.

On this episode of Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing, Jonathan Greene speaks with Spencer Hilligoss, CEO and co-founder of Madison Investing, about his journey from growing up in a real estate brokerage household to becoming a thoughtful passive investor and investing club leader. Spencer shares how a long career in Silicon Valley tech shaped his approach to risk, cash flow, and long-term financial planning, and why real estate became a critical tool for building stability beyond W-2 income.

The conversation explores Spencer's transition from owning rental properties to focusing on limited partner investing, including how capacity, family priorities, and operational realities influenced that shift. Spencer breaks down how he evaluates sponsors, why track record and communication matter more than flashy projections, and what recent market cycles have reinforced about conservative underwriting and disciplined deal selection.

Listeners will gain clarity on when passive investing makes sense, how to think about risk and accountability as an LP, and why education and mindset—not deal hype—are the foundation of long-term success.

In this episode, you will hear:

• How growing up in a brokerage family influenced Spencer's investing mindset

• Why W-2 income alone isn't enough for long-term financial resilience

• The transition from owning rentals to passive LP investing

• How to evaluate sponsors, track record, and deal structure

• Why "passive" investing still requires active due diligence

• Lessons learned from recent market shifts and recalibrated return expectations

Follow and Review
If you enjoy the show, please follow Zen and the Art of Real Estate Investing on Apple Podcasts and leave a rating and review. It helps other listeners discover these conversations and supports the show's growth.

Connect with Spencer

Website: http://www.madisoninvesting.com/

Website: http://www.spencerhilligoss.com/

Twitter: https://x.com/SpenceHilligoss

LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/shilligoss/

Connect with Jonathan:

Website - www.streamlined.properties

YouTube - www.youtube.com/c/JonathanGreeneRE/videos

Instagram - www.instagram.com/trustgreene

Instagram - www.instagram.com/streamlinedproperties

Zillow - www.zillow.com/profile/streamlinen​j

Bigger Pockets - www.biggerpockets.com/users/jonathangreene

Facebook - www.facebook.com/streamlinedproperties

Email - info@streamlined.properties

This episode was produced by Outlier Audio.