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An extraordinary conversation with Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley, the writer-curator duo who literally wrote the books on installation art and founded the Museum of Installation in London. For nearly 40 years, they've been chroniclers, producers, curators, and advocates for a medium that barely had a name when they first started.

From publishing the definitive Installation Art books (1994, 2003) and commissioning hundreds of new works to building an extensive archive – Nicolas and Nicola have been at the coalface of installation art's evolution.

In this wide-ranging discussion, they share what it was like convincing galleries that installation art even existed, why good documentation became their mission, and how they've sustained independent curatorial practice for four decades on "absolute shoestring budgets."

Key insights from this episode:

• How installation art emerged and why galleries insisted it was "just sculpture"

• Coining the term "immersive" in their 2003 book (before it became ubiquitous)

• Their philosophy of curating as co-production

• The economics of independent spaces: how friendships sustain what funding cannot

• Why they turned down a massive London space and turned to making books

• The difference between installation art and the "entertainment industry" of immersive experiences

• Advice for emerging artists: practice comes first, outcomes come later

Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley are based in London and run SE8 Gallery in Deptford. Their books Installation Art (1994) and Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003) remain foundational texts in the field.

They publish artist books under their imprint Mulberry Tree Press and continue to curate exhibitions internationally while maintaining one of the most extensive archives of installation art documentation in the world.

00:26 Discovering Installation Art

01:50 Early Influences and Inspirations

06:24 Founding Unit 7 Gallery

07:30 The Role of Documentation

14:45 Museum of Installation

18:30 SE8 Gallery and International Projects

20:05 Challenges of Space and Real Estate

24:10 Curatorial Practices and Artist Relationships

36:09 Writing Process and Collaboration

43:02 Funding and Sustainability

47:06 Installation Art and the Art Market

01:05:08 Supporting Artists Through Time and Commitment

01:07:36 Advice for Emerging Installation Practitioners

01:17:58 Curating Shows in Different Countries

01:24:09 Documenting and Archiving Installations

01:43:44 Defining Installation Art and Its Future

SE8 Gallery: https://se8.gallery/ | https://www.instagram.com/nicode.oliveira?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Installation Art (1996): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12208566-installation-art

Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1972215.Installation_Art_in_the_New_Millennium

Our interview with Hans op de Beeck: https://installationartpodcast.com/hans-op-de-beeck-018

Bonus episode: What is Installation Art: