Episodes

  • MAHA in Crisis? Measles, RFK Jr., Vaccine Policy & the Return of Preventable Disease

    MAHA in Crisis? Measles, RFK Jr., Vaccine Policy & the Return of Preventable Disease
    Jul 19 2026

    Is the "Make America Healthy Again" movement beginning to unravel?

    Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent examine a wave of recent public health stories that they argue reveal growing dysfunction within the Department of Health and Human Services under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. From staffing shortages and agency leadership vacancies to vaccine policy changes and expanding infectious disease outbreaks, they discuss what they believe are the real-world consequences of current federal health leadership.

    The conversation also explores new measles outbreaks, cyclospora foodborne illness, influenza vaccine effectiveness, updated COVID vaccine research, child labor debates, NIH funding, scientific independence, and the continuing influence of prominent pandemic-era commentators.

    Whether you agree or disagree, this episode tackles some of the most consequential public health debates unfolding today.

    In This Episode
    • The latest reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership at HHS
    • Why MAHA and MAGA may be increasingly at odds
    • The growing measles outbreaks across the United States
    • Cyclospora infections and concerns over weakened food safety oversight
    • New research on influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing pediatric deaths
    • Updated COVID vaccine effectiveness data against hospitalization and severe illness
    • The role of herd immunity and population immunity in today's COVID landscape
    • The future of CDC leadership and federal public health agencies
    • NIH funding, political oversight, and concerns about scientific independence
    • Scott Atlas and calls to abolish the NIH
    • Continued debate over COVID lockdowns and pandemic policy
    • David Zweig, Jeffrey Tucker, Brownstone Institute, and education debates
    • Child labor laws and their intersection with pandemic-era rhetoric
    • Why physician-scientists continue debating the legacy of COVID policy
    • Scientific misinformation and public trust
    • Current public health threats beyond COVID
    Key Topics Discussed
    • RFK Jr.
    • Department of Health and Human Services
    • MAHA
    • MAGA
    • Measles resurgence
    • Cyclospora outbreak
    • Vaccine effectiveness
    • Influenza vaccination
    • COVID-19 boosters
    • CDC leadership
    • NIH funding
    • Scientific research
    • Public health policy
    • Pandemic response
    • School closures
    • Medical misinformation
    • Health policy
    Memorable Discussion Points

    "Public health leadership isn't judged by rhetoric—it's judged by outcomes."

    "Preventable diseases don't care about political ideology."

    "Science requires evidence, not personalities."

    Resources Mentioned
    • Recent New York Times reporting on HHS leadership
    • JAMA studies on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness
    • CIDRAP influenza vaccine research
    • Scientific American reporting on NIH funding changes
    • Washington Post reporting on federal science policy
    About We Want Them Infected

    We Want Them Infected examines public health, infectious disease, vaccine policy, misinformation, and science through evidence-based discussion featuring neurologist Dr. Jonathan Howard and science journalist Wendy Orent.

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    1 hr and 32 mins
  • Inside the NIH: Dr. Jenna Norton on the Bethesda Declaration, Scientific Integrity & Speaking Truth to Power

    Inside the NIH: Dr. Jenna Norton on the Bethesda Declaration, Scientific Integrity & Speaking Truth to Power
    Jul 3 2026

    In Episode 102 of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent are joined by Jenna Norton, a public health scientist and NIH program officer who became one of the leading voices opposing what she describes as the politicization of biomedical research.

    The conversation begins with a discussion of a recent article by John Ioannidis criticizing "misinformation labeling," prompting a broader conversation about scientific accountability, public trust, and the responsibility to challenge misinformation.

    Dr. Norton then shares an insider's perspective on the dramatic changes inside the National Institutes of Health following the arrival of new leadership. She explains how grant cancellations, staffing reductions, halted clinical trials, and increasing political oversight led her and dozens of colleagues to organize the Bethesda Declaration, an open letter expressing concern over threats to scientific independence.

    The discussion explores:

    • How NIH grant funding works and the role of program officers.
    • The culture of scientific collaboration that historically defined the NIH.
    • Concerns over political influence in research funding.
    • The impact of canceled clinical trials on patients and researchers.
    • Why Dr. Norton believes scientific dissent must be protected.
    • Her experience being placed on administrative leave after publicly criticizing agency leadership.
    • The long-term consequences of politicizing public health research.

    The episode concludes with a discussion about proposed federal funding changes, the future of biomedical research, and why protecting scientific integrity matters for every American—not just scientists.

    Guest Bio

    Jenna Norton is a health equity and public health scientist serving as a program officer at the National Institutes of Health, where her work has focused on kidney disease, urology, and health disparities within the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases. She is one of the principal organizers and signers of the Bethesda Declaration, a public statement from NIH employees expressing concerns about political interference in biomedical research and the erosion of scientific independence. Dr. Norton has written publicly about scientific integrity, whistleblower protections, and evidence-based policymaking, emphasizing that she speaks in her personal capacity rather than on behalf of the NIH.

    Key Topics
    • Scientific integrity at the NIH
    • The Bethesda Declaration
    • NIH grant funding and peer review
    • Clinical trial terminations
    • Whistleblower protections
    • Public trust in science
    • Political influence on biomedical research
    • Research ethics
    • Health disparities
    • Evidence-based policymaking
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    1 hr and 18 mins
  • COVID Amnesia, Measles Resurgence, and the Fight for Public Health

    COVID Amnesia, Measles Resurgence, and the Fight for Public Health
    Jun 17 2026

    In this episode of We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard, MD, and Wendy Orent return with another "Therapy Time" session, breaking down the latest controversies in public health, vaccine policy, and medical misinformation.

    They examine a recent Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and discuss what they describe as the ongoing effort to rewrite the history of the COVID-19 pandemic. The conversation explores the role of public health experts, media narratives, and the consequences of what they view as COVID amnesia.

    Jonathan and Wendy also discuss the growing measles outbreaks across the United States, declining vaccination rates, misinformation surrounding vitamin A as a measles treatment, and the broader impact of vaccine skepticism on public health.

    Additional topics include RFK Jr.'s influence over U.S. health policy, changes within federal health agencies, the future of vaccine recommendations, scientific funding, medical research, and the ethical questions surrounding global health decisions.

    Throughout the episode, they highlight the importance of frontline physicians, researchers, and healthcare workers who continue to combat infectious diseases and advocate for evidence-based medicine.

    Episode Highlights

    • The Wall Street Journal documentary on the Great Barrington Declaration and the debate over COVID-era policies

    • Why Jonathan believes COVID's impact on young and otherwise healthy patients is being minimized

    • The controversy surrounding the idea of herd immunity through widespread infection

    • The American Diabetes Association controversy involving criticism of NIH leadership

    • RFK Jr.'s role in public health policy and reactions from major medical organizations

    • The resurgence of measles and what declining vaccination rates mean for public health

    • Misinformation surrounding measles treatments, including vitamin A

    • The future of vaccine recommendations at the CDC and FDA

    • Concerns over political influence in scientific research and federal funding

    • The rise of unproven medical treatments marketed to vulnerable families

    • Ethical debates around global infectious disease response, including Ebola

    • The healthcare workers and scientists continuing to protect public health

    Memorable Quote

    "The people taking care of Ebola patients are the bravest people in the world."

    — Wendy Orent

    Resources & Articles Mentioned

    • The Great Barrington Declaration

    • The Wall Street Journal documentary on COVID-era debates

    • The New York Times reporting on RFK Jr.'s leadership of HHS

    • STAT News reporting on RFK Jr.'s health policy promises

    • CDC reports on measles outbreaks in the United States

    • Reporting on vitamin A toxicity linked to misinformation about measles treatments

    • The Guardian reporting on vaccine misinformation studies

    • Reporting on NIH funding and scientific research changes
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    1 hr and 20 mins
  • The Media Figures Who Helped Build MAHA

    The Media Figures Who Helped Build MAHA
    Jun 1 2026

    This week on We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent take a step back from the headlines to examine the academics, journalists, physicians, and commentators who helped legitimize and elevate the MAHA movement. They revisit articles, endorsements, and public statements that portrayed figures like Jay Bhattacharya, Marty Makary, and Vinay Prasad as reformers poised to restore trust in science and public health. With the benefit of hindsight, they explore how those predictions have aged, what has happened inside major health agencies, and why accountability matters when influential voices help shape public opinion.
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    1 hr and 22 mins
  • FDA Shakeups Hantavirus Fears and the Fractures Inside MAHA

    FDA Shakeups Hantavirus Fears and the Fractures Inside MAHA
    Jun 1 2026

    This week on We Want Them Infected, Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent unpack a whirlwind week in public health and pandemic policy. They examine newly released FDA findings showing no definitive child deaths linked to COVID vaccines, challenge claims made by former FDA officials, and discuss the growing controversy surrounding vaccine safety narratives. They also explore the fallout from leadership changes at the FDA, RFK Jr.'s latest public health moves, concerns about scientific collaboration restrictions, and the surprising response to recent hantavirus and Ebola threats. Along the way, they take a closer look at Jay Bhattacharya's evolving stance on infectious disease mitigation and what it may reveal about the realities of public health leadership.
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    1 hr and 15 mins
  • Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, Tracy Hoeg: The FDA Implosion and the End of MAHA's Pandemic Influencers

    Bill Cassidy, Marty Makary, Vinay Prasad, Tracy Hoeg: The FDA Implosion and the End of MAHA's Pandemic Influencers
    May 24 2026
    Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent call this week their "Red Wedding": within days, FDA Commissioner Marty Makary resigned, Vinay Prasad was pushed out of CBER, Tracy Beth Hoeg was fired, and Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Louisiana primary. The hosts argue this is not a tragedy but a long-foretold collapse — a group of physicians who built careers as COVID-era contrarian podcasters discovering that running a regulatory agency is fundamentally different from posting about one. Howard works through the wreckage: Makary's reported approval of flavored nicotine products days before his ouster, the FDA's treatment of the rare disease community, the leaked memo claiming pediatric COVID vaccine deaths that career staff refused to sign off on, and the broader pattern of "regulatory whiplash" that drove the agency into dysfunction. The episode then turns to who is still standing — Jay Bhattacharya at NIH, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS — and what Kennedy is reportedly doing to vaccines from behind the scenes via Martin Kulldorff's review effort. Throughout, the hosts return to a single thesis: the skills that made Makary, Prasad, Hoeg, and Cassidy famous during COVID — opinion, tweeting, posturing — do not translate into running institutions, and the medical commentators who vouched for them (John Mandrola, Adam Cifu) have lost any remaining credibility. Key Topics Discussed Bill Cassidy's primary loss and the cost of the Kennedy confirmation vote Cassidy's earlier vote to convict Trump after January 6 followed by his decisive vote advancing RFK Jr. as HHS Secretary. Howard and Orent's view that Cassidy's promise to "keep Kennedy in line" was hollow from the start. What Cassidy's defeat signals about Trump's grip on the Republican base in Louisiana — and the hosts' read that his lame-duck status may give him cover to block the next round of HHS nominees. Marty Makary's resignation and the "worst FDA Commissioner in 25 years" framing The Stat News piece characterizing Makary's tenure, and the reporting that flavored nicotine was the precipitating issue with Trump's tobacco-industry donors. Howard's counterpoint: Makary reportedly approved a batch of electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) on May 5, 2026 — the weekend before he resigned — undercutting the "principled stand" narrative. The pattern of selfie videos, public-facing performance, and what former FDA staff describe as hostile management of career scientists. Makary's pre-FDA record: the "medical error is the third leading cause of death" claim, Omicron as "nature's vaccine," "Omicold," herd immunity calls in May 2021, and the Nazi-bioweapon Lyme disease theory amplification. Vinay Prasad, regulatory whiplash, and the rare disease community How Prasad's stated preference for randomized controlled trials translated into rejection of rare disease therapies — and the disconnect between calling for RCTs on Twitter and the practical impossibility of running them for small patient populations. Right-to-try advocates, the libertarian wing of MAHA (Senator Ron Johnson), and why they turned on Prasad. Howard's point: Pfizer's halted COVID vaccine RCT in 50–65-year-olds is the case study — the trials Prasad demanded couldn't actually be enrolled. Tracy Beth Hoeg, the leaked pediatric deaths memo, and the Maryanne Demasi interview Hoeg's insistence she was fired, not resigned, and her interview with Brownstone Institute–adjacent journalist Maryanne Demasi. Her claim that the chaos at the FDA was "created by the media" rather than real. The memo alleging 10 pediatric deaths from the COVID vaccine that career FDA staff would not sign off on — and Howard's contrast with the J&J/thrombosis response, where nine deaths produced immediate, transparent action. Hoeg's role in the Denmark-style vaccine schedule rollback memo alongside Makary. The Makary–Prasad ZDoggMD clip on FDA "vindictiveness" — and the irony Audio pulled from a pre-appointment Prasad/Makary appearance describing the FDA as "erratic," "capricious," and politically pressured. Howard's read: every criticism they leveled at the Biden-era FDA describes their own tenure — political pressure from Trump, demoted career staff, inconsistent standards. The Peter Marks / Marion Gruber / Phil Krause booster episode reframed in light of what followed. John Mandrola, Adam Cifu, and the cost of vouching Mandrola's "Can We Give the New FDA's Leadership a Chance?" piece a year earlier — and the line about Prasad and Makary inducing companies to run proper RCTs, set against Pfizer's halted trial. Howard's account of an email exchange with Cifu following Cifu's visit to NYU — Howard's offer of a serious content-level conversation, and Cifu's decline. The broader "medical conservatives" project and what the hosts argue has happened to its credibility. Jay Bhattacharya, NIH, and the resignation letter from departing staff The letter from a senior NIH scientist on ...
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    1 hr and 32 mins
  • Nicole Saphier Surgeon General Nomination, Dr. David Morens Arrest, and the FDA's COVID Vaccine Censorship

    Nicole Saphier Surgeon General Nomination, Dr. David Morens Arrest, and the FDA's COVID Vaccine Censorship
    May 12 2026
    Dr. Jonathan Howard (neurologist and author) and science journalist Wendy Orent return for another sharp, unsparing look at the state of U.S. public health policy. In this episode, the hosts unpack the surprise withdrawal of Casey Means as surgeon general nominee, her replacement by Fox News commentator and MSKCC breast imaging chief Dr. Nicole Saphier, and what the shuffle signals about the fracturing of the MAHA coalition. They dig into Saphier's contradictory record — pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 set against more recent anti-vaccine messaging, her supplement business (DropRx), and her now-deleted social media posts criticizing Trump and Elon Musk. From there, the conversation turns to the FDA's blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe, the apparent role of former FDA vaccine office chief Dr. Vinay Prasad, and reporting that FDA Commissioner Marty Makary's job is in jeopardy. The episode also covers a small piece of good news — NIH program director Jenna Norton being reinstated after Jay Bhattacharya placed her on administrative leave for organizing the Bethesda Declaration — alongside disturbing developments: RFK Jr. clearing the path for minors to use tanning beds, and the militarized arrest of 78-year-old retired NIH scientist Dr. David Morens. Howard and Orent close on what the Morens arrest reveals about where lab leak conspiracy thinking has led American science and the rule of law. Hosts Dr. Jonathan Howard: Neurologist, professor, and author who writes prolifically on COVID misinformation and public health policy. Wendy Orent: Science journalist and author specializing in infectious disease, evolutionary biology, and public health. Episode Timestamps [00:00] Welcome and Atlanta weather check-in [00:35] Casey Means out, Nicole Saphier in as surgeon general nominee — what it signals about MAHA [01:30] Saphier's role at Memorial Sloan Kettering and her integrative medicine push [02:50] The 2021 WSJ op-ed with Marty Makary: a 10-fold error on pediatric COVID hospitalizations that was never corrected [06:30] Saphier's video opposing COVID vaccines for healthy children — and the framing of myocarditis as a fate worse than death [09:20] Saphier's earlier pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021, and why MAHA now resents her [11:15] DropRx supplements: the surgeon general nominee's tincture business [12:30] Brandy Zadrozny's reporting on Saphier's book and her past criticism of the Plandemic film [13:10] Wendy watches Plandemic so you don't have to: Judy Mikovits and the anti-vaccine machine [14:50] CNN reports Saphier purged posts critical of Trump and Musk before her nomination [15:50] The most disturbing Saphier clip: 'DOGE is one of the greatest things to happen in U.S. history' while telling cancer researchers to 'just pause' [16:50] Harvard's November 2025 finding: hundreds of thousands of deaths from the USAID shutdown [18:20] Good news: Jenna Norton reinstated at NIH after Jay Bhattacharya tried to fire her over the Bethesda Declaration [19:30] Greg Gonsalves on scientists who cooperate with authoritarian science policy [20:10] FDA blocked publication of research showing the COVID and shingles vaccines are safe [21:30] Vinay Prasad: the censorship critic who became a censor [22:30] Why are these people opposed to the shingles vaccine? Howard and Orent on herpes zoster, strokes, and ophthalmic complications [23:50] New evidence: recombinant zoster vaccine linked to reduced dementia risk in adults 65+ [26:10] Marty Makary's FDA in chaos — WSJ, Bloomberg, and Politico reporting on a possible shakeup [28:00] Trump pressures the FDA to approve flavored vapes; ENDS authorization issued the same day [31:00] Makary's interview defending the Replimmune metastatic melanoma rejection — and getting caught in the contradiction [33:30] Who's really driving the FDA shakeup? Biotech investors, not patients [35:30] RFK Jr. clears path for minors to use tanning beds, and what dermatologists are saying [36:30] The arrest of Dr. David Morens: a 78-year-old retired NIH scientist, federal agents, tactical gear, and a strip-search [38:30] Lysenkoism revisited — what the lab leak conspiracy was always going to lead to [40:30] Closing thoughts and sign-off Key Discussion Points The Nicole Saphier Nomination Casey Means was withdrawn as surgeon general nominee and replaced by Dr. Nicole Saphier, head of breast imaging at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center and a frequent Fox News medical commentator. Howard revisits Saphier's December 2021 Wall Street Journal op-ed with Marty Makary, which understated pediatric COVID-19 hospitalizations by roughly a factor of 10 because the authors did not realize covid.net data only covered about 10 percent of the U.S. population. The error has never been corrected. Saphier's pre-nomination digital footprint included pro-vaccine statements from 2020 and 2021 alongside more recent ...
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    50 mins
  • COVID Misinformation, Scientific Censorship & Public Health Leadership Failures: What's Really Happening in 2026

    COVID Misinformation, Scientific Censorship & Public Health Leadership Failures: What's Really Happening in 2026
    May 3 2026

    In this episode of We Want Them Infected, hosts Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent break down the growing concerns around scientific censorship, COVID-19 misinformation, and the erosion of public trust in health institutions. They examine controversial claims surrounding vaccine studies, leadership decisions at the CDC and NIH, and the broader implications of political influence on public health policy.

    The discussion highlights debates over COVID vaccine efficacy research, the suppression of scientific findings, and the role of key figures like Jay Bhattacharya and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. in shaping public discourse. The hosts also explore the resurgence of diseases like measles, declining vaccination rates, and the long-term consequences of weakened public health infrastructure.

    From academic freedom concerns to global health risks, this episode provides a critical analysis of how misinformation and leadership decisions are reshaping science, medicine, and public trust in 2026.

    Connect with us further on https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/jonathanhoward/ The Fine Print

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    1 hr and 13 mins