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Toot or Boot

Toot or Boot

By: WRKdefined Podcast Network
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 Toot or Boot brings you unfiltered conversations about work — straight from HR insiders who aren’t afraid to tell the truth. With a rotating crew of progressive HR leaders, we break down the latest news and trends to show what’s really happening and why it matters for your job. Whether you’re in HR or just trying to survive your 9-to-5, expect real talk, practical advice, and the occasional laugh to get you through the chaos of modern work. To find out more, check out tootorboot.comAll rights reserved by WRKdefined Economics Management Management & Leadership Politics & Government
Episodes
  • The ongoing trouble with SHRM

    The ongoing trouble with SHRM
    Dec 16 2025
    For decades, SHRM has been the institution shaping HR standards, HR certifications, and workplace policy. But as political tensions rise, protections erode, and credibility questions grow louder, HR leaders are asking a new question: What happens when the largest HR organization in the world stops representing workers — and starts representing itself? In this packed, no-nonsense episode of Toot or Boot originally recorded in November 2024, Stacey Nordwall sits down with Sarika Lamont, Tracie Sponenberg, and Morgan Williams to unpack the long, complicated history of SHRM’s decisions and the ripple effects those choices have had on the HR profession, marginalized employees, and federal policy. The group traces SHRM’s evolution from “the only place HR could go” to an entity criticized for political alliances, removing equity from DEI, paywalling pandemic resources, and most recently, found responsible for discriminating and retaliating against a former employee. They also dive into something that matters even more: the rise of people-first HR communities that filled the vacuum when SHRM didn’t — and what HR practitioners can rely on now. Whether you’re SHRM-certified, SHRM-skeptical, or SHRM-conflicted, this conversation gives you the context you need to understand what’s at stake for HR, workers, and the future of workplace policy. Key takeaways SHRM’s decisions shape HR policy, employment law, and workplace norms worldwide. The organization’s political alignment has shifted sharply — and visibly — in recent years. SHRM paywalled critical COVID resources at the height of crisis. Removing the “E” from DEI sent a damaging message to marginalized workers. Johnny Taylor’s public stances contradict SHRM’s stated neutrality. SHRM’s lobbying often benefits employers, not employees or practitioners. The ongoing discrimination lawsuit highlights internal cultural issues. HR’s community-driven response during COVID created better models for learning and support. Alternatives — Peak HR, Hacking HR, Safe Space, Troop HR, and others — now offer richer, people-centered resources. HR leaders must stay informed because SHRM’s policy influence impacts workers, equity, and the future of the profession. Timestamps 02:00 — How each guest’s SHRM journey shaped their perspective 07:00 — The SHRM–HRCI split and political entanglements 12:00 — SHRM’s silence after George Floyd and LGBTQ+ cases 16:00 — The COVID paywall and the turning point in trust 20:00 — Johnny Taylor’s political positioning and the Labor Secretary shortlist 25:00 — Why SHRM’s power matters for HR and workers 33:00 — The danger of “civility” replacing equity 40:00 — How HR community spaces filled the gap 50:00 — Alternatives to SHRM and where HR is going next SHRM controversy, HR policy, Johnny Taylor, DEI equity removed, SHRM lawsuit, HR community, workplace politics, HR certification, lobbying impact, alternatives to SHRM
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    50 mins
  • The chaos inside modern hiring systems

    The chaos inside modern hiring systems
    Dec 9 2025
    Hiring has never felt more confusing — for candidates, recruiters, or the HR teams stuck in the middle. Between ATS myths, bad advice on TikTok, the Mobley v. Workday lawsuit, and a flood of AI-powered recruiting tools no one fully understands, it’s no surprise people are frustrated and misinformed. In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall is joined by talent experts Dani Herrera and T. Tara Turk-Haynes to pull back the curtain on what actually happens behind the scenes of recruiting. They break down common ATS misconceptions, explain how knockout questions really work, unpack the rise of grifters targeting desperate job seekers, and explore the messy overlap between automation and AI. The trio also digs into the Mobley lawsuit: what triggers instant rejections, when discrimination comes from the humans (not the software), how automation gets misread as AI, and why companies should be terrified of buying shiny tools without asking hard questions about data, bias, legality, and accountability. If you’ve ever wondered why you got rejected in 30 seconds, who really makes hiring decisions, or why every “ATS-proof résumé” online is a scam, this episode gives you the truth — with humor, receipts, and the kind of grounded reality only seasoned recruiters can offer. Key Takeaways Recruiters are not the final decision makers — hiring managers are. ATS systems don’t “reject” people; knockout questions and human setup errors do. Automation ≠ AI — and most instant rejections are automation, not algorithms. Keywords help recruiters search, but keyword stuffing is unnecessary and harmful. Résumé templates claiming to be “ATS-compliant” are pure grift. Many interviewers receive no training, which derails fair hiring. Workday and other large systems are only as ethical as the people who configure them. The Mobley lawsuit highlights systemic, not just AI-driven, discrimination risks. HR teams must ask vendors hard questions about data sources, audits, and bias. Candidates should be wary of bad online advice and seek guidance from real recruiters. Timestamps 00:00 — Why recruiting feels like a black box 02:00 — What recruiters actually control (and don’t) 07:00 — How ATSs really work behind the scenes 14:00 — The truth about keyword myths and “résumé hacks” 20:00 — How knock-out questions trigger instant rejections 23:00 — Grifters preying on job seekers with false promises 28:00 — Workday as ATS and HRIS — why that matters 33:00 — The deeper problem behind Mobley v. Workday 47:00 — When AI amplifies human bias instead of preventing it 55:00 — The questions HR must ask AI vendors now
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    1 hr and 9 mins
  • The High Cost of Being “Nice” at Work

    The High Cost of Being “Nice” at Work
    Dec 2 2025
    We’ve been taught that “nice” is the goal at work — be pleasant, be agreeable, don’t rock the boat. But what if niceness is actually keeping us stuck, silencing truth-tellers, and protecting the status quo? In this episode of Toot or Boot, Stacey Nordwall sits down with author and communications strategist Amira Barger to unpack her new book The Price of Nice — a fierce, funny, deeply human guide to understanding how performative niceness, forced neutrality, and “civility” are used to silence real people and reinforce harmful systems. They explore why truth-telling gets punished, how identity and politics always enter the workplace, why leaders cling to neutrality, and what “nerve” really looks like in practice. If you’ve ever swallowed your truth to keep the peace — this episode will give you language, tools, and permission to show up differently and to challenge harm without self-abandoning. Key Takeaways “Niceness” often demands self-abandonment in service of others’ comfort. Kindness and niceness are not the same — kindness requires honesty. Neutrality is not neutral; it protects power, not people. Identity, politics, and lived experience always walk into work with us. Civility can be weaponized to silence truth-tellers and maintain the status quo. The “nerve vs. nice” continuum explains how we’re socialized to stay small. Micro-actions of courage matter as much as big acts of resistance. Leaders need both advocacy and inquiry to create real change. Perfectly assertive communication helps challenge harm without blowing things up. DEI work still happens in micro-spheres — influence what you can control. Timestamps 00:00 — Welcome + why Amira’s work resonates 01:19 — Defining “the price of nice” 03:17 — The story that exposed the harm of niceness 06:41 — Nice vs. nerve: the continuum 10:22 — Kids, truth-telling, and naming what adults ignore 12:03 — Why politics and identity cannot be separated from work 15:42 — The myth of neutrality — and who it protects 20:52 — The weaponization of civility and tone policing 25:19 — Advocacy + inquiry: a better leadership model 30:03 — The Four W Model: navigating hard moments with clarity 36:48 — Micro-actions as everyday nerve 40:31 — The “relay” model of shared resistance Top Keywords niceness vs kindness, workplace neutrality, nerve vs nice, psychological safety, performative civility, identity at work, DEI backlash, assertive communication, leadership inquiry tools, speaking up at work
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    46 mins
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