Gratitude: I must express a sense real gratitude for David Bentley Hart coming onto the podcast. His books have indeed changed my life. The Atheist Delusions settled so many historical and theological questions that would constantly nag at my faith, and the Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, that truly saved my faith. After reading that book, Atheism seemed so philosophically inept that it became patently absurd to doubt the existence of God as such. The Doors of the Sea was an incredible meditation upon the question of suffering, or theodicy, and his book on Christian history is both thorough and enticing. His essays have often challenged me, and I truly believe that “The Beauty of the Infinite” is one of the most important theological texts written for today. More so than almost any other, it tackles the questions raised by the postmodern philosophers, and excoriates them while nonetheless taking their arguments on their own terms. He demonstrates a complete mastery over the works of Nietzsche, Derrida, Deluxe, Guitarri, Levinas, etc. while being firmly grounded in an Orthodox patristic worldview, heavily influenced by Gregory of Nyssa and Maximus the Confessor. In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, theologian and philosopher David Bentley Hart joins Matthew Wilkinson to ask one of the oldest and most dangerous questions in the human story: what is beauty — and what happens when we lose it? What follows is not a polite academic exchange but a wide-ranging meditation on love, truth, art, and the presence of God in a disenchanted world.Hart begins by tracing the ancient idea that beauty, truth, and goodness are not separate virtues but one radiant reality — different ways of touching the same mystery. He explains that every genuine encounter with beauty is also an encounter with love and with being itself, and that the more deeply one pursues any of these transcendentals, the more they converge. Beauty, he argues, is not decoration on the surface of reality but the way reality discloses its own perfection.From there, the conversation turns to the modern world’s forgetfulness of beauty. Hart reflects on how contemporary art and culture often mistake novelty for vision, or transgression for depth. Drawing on examples from music and painting, he describes what happens when art loses its center in love — when creativity becomes an exercise in irony rather than an act of reverence. The result, he says, is not freedom but exhaustion: a civilization that can no longer recognize its own soul.Yet Hart is no pessimist. He insists that beauty still breaks through the ruins, that every authentic work of art — from Bach to Messiaen, from an icon to a poem — is an act of love made visible. Even when beauty wounds or overwhelms us, it does so because it reveals something truer than comfort: the longing for what we were made to behold. To experience beauty is to be called beyond oneself, toward the source of all being.At the heart of the interview lies Hart’s startling claim that “God is the beautiful, God is love — these all refer to the same simple reality.” In that single sentence, metaphysics becomes devotion. Beauty is not merely a sign of the divine; it is the divine made perceptible. Love and art, when they are genuine, participate in that same reality, bearing witness to the truth that creation itself is an act of aesthetic generosity.Matthew and Hart also explore the paradox of beauty and suffering — how the cross, the moment of supreme ugliness, becomes the revelation of perfect beauty. They ask whether our capacity to see the beautiful in what is broken might be the surest test of spiritual vision. Beauty, Hart suggests, does not flee from darkness; it transfigures it.The conversation closes with a vision both humbling and hopeful: a call to recover the contemplative gaze, to look at the world again as something loved into being.

“If I were the devil, I’d start by destroying beauty.”Composer Dr. John Wykoff joins Matthew Wilkinson on The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast for a rare, soul-stirring conversation about what beauty really is, why it matters, and how its loss is reshaping our civilization. In this wide-ranging dialogue, the two explore the deep relationship between aesthetics, ethics, and faith—and how recovering a sense of beauty could be the key to restoring both art and culture.Beauty, truth, and goodness have been intertwined for centuries, but in the modern world they’ve been pulled apart. Wykoff argues that when we relativize beauty, we eventually relativize morality itself. He explains why the decline of aesthetic judgment leads to moral confusion, how postmodernism flattened the hierarchy of values, and why artists and believers alike must learn again to “love what they create” rather than innovate for innovation’s sake. This is not an abstract discussion—it’s a diagnosis of our cultural sickness and a roadmap toward renewal.Drawing on the legacy of Alice Parker, Arvo Pärt, and Wendell Berry, Wykoff reveals how genuine art begins in love and humility. “Don’t arrange it if you don’t love it,” he says. “Start with love.” From his reflections on choral arranging and sacred song to his critique of technology’s impact on music, Wykoff calls artists to return to the human, the communal, and the incarnational. Beauty, he suggests, isn’t luxury—it’s spiritual warfare.Together, Wilkinson and Wykoff trace the collapse of beauty in modern art, the spiritual implications of digital sound, and the metaphysical truth hidden inside musical form. They discuss postmodernism, hierarchy, counterpoint, theology, philosophy of art, and the moral imagination—all through the lens of a Christian composer who writes fugues “before breakfast” to discipline his soul. What emerges is a vision of beauty as participation in divine order, where every note and brushstroke becomes an act of love.If you’ve ever felt that something sacred has gone missing from culture, this conversation will name what you’ve sensed. It’s a meditation on how art can heal the soul and how beauty leads us back to God.

video at end courtesy of Missouri State University Chorale https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0_fk_s7eCs

Performed by the Missouri State University Men's Chorus at Juanita K. Hammons Hall for the Performing Arts in Springfield, MO on March 6, 2018.Missouri State University Men's Chorus - Cameron F. LaBarr, conductor“Gone Home”arr. John WykoffSoloist: Giovanni Hernandez, baritonePiano: Parker PayneVideo Production by Blake Richter Productions www.blakerichterproductions.comAudio Production by Darcy Stephens

In this in-depth conversation, Father Pimen Simon of the Old Rite Church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, Pennsylvania, joins Matthew Wilkinson to discuss the history, theology, and music of the Old Believers within the Russian Orthodox tradition. He explains how the Old Rite preserved ancient liturgical forms, theology, and chant after Patriarch Nikon’s 17th-century reforms divided the Russian Church. (Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 28)Fr. Pimen describes the rise of the priested and priestless Old Believers, their centuries of persecution, and the later process of reconciliation with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR). He recounts how his own community—once priestless—voted to reunite with ROCOR after the anathemas against the Old Rite were lifted in the 1970s at the urging of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, opening the way for a new generation of Old Ritualist parishes in America, Oregon, Alaska, and beyond.The discussion explores the difference between ritual and dogma, the meaning of liturgical continuity, and how Old Believers maintained their faith through exile and hardship. Fr. Pimen explains the structure of priestless worship, the role of the nastavnik, and how communities survived without the Eucharist for generations while preserving the fullness of prayer and devotion.A major focus is the Znamenny Chant, the ancient melodic system that the Old Rite preserved when the rest of the Russian Church turned toward Western polyphony. Fr. Pimen traces its origins to early Byzantine influence, showing how Old Believers kept this music alive in its pure, unharmonized form. He demonstrates how they have adapted the chant into English while remaining faithful to its medieval notation, stressing that chant should elevate the text rather than overwhelm it with musical display.The conversation also touches on wider themes—the balance between tradition and adaptation, the problem of “watered-down Orthodoxy,” the renewal of fasting and liturgical life, and the spiritual meaning of beauty and simplicity in worship.For musicians, historians, and anyone drawn to sacred art and living tradition, this episode offers an extraordinary window into one of Christianity’s most ancient surviving liturgical lineages.

What happened to beauty in architecture? In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Michael Diamant, founder of The Architectural Uprising and creator of the Facebook group New Traditional Architecture, to explore how we lost our connection to form, harmony, and meaning in the modern world. From the sterile glass towers of contemporary cities to the rediscovery of timeless design, Diamant reveals why the future of architecture depends on reviving classical principles.

Diamant describes how The Architectural Uprising began as a movement across Scandinavia and Europe, uniting thousands who reject modernism’s soulless aesthetic in favor of beauty, truth, and goodness. He discusses the paradox of rebellion in a tradition-minded cause—how “uprising” means reclaiming the human spirit from ideology and bringing back craftsmanship, proportion, and the pursuit of the transcendent in the built environment.

The conversation dives into the philosophical foundations of classical architecture: why beauty is objective, why proportion and symbolism matter, and how the classical tradition is not a single style but a living framework that evolves with culture. Diamant contrasts the humility of the classical architect—who serves the street, the city, and the community—with the ego-driven modernist who builds for novelty’s sake, creating monuments to self rather than to truth.

Together they examine Frank Lloyd Wright, Art Nouveau, and Art Deco, exploring which modern movements successfully carried forward the classical spirit and which succumbed to utilitarianism. Diamant argues that early modernism once promised beauty and progress but was quickly replaced by what he calls “narcissistic modernism,” obsessed with innovation and ideology instead of human flourishing.

As the discussion turns toward urban design, Diamant explains why skyscrapers alienate people from one another, how courtyard urbanism creates livable cities, and why Europe’s most beloved neighborhoods work so well. He contrasts the community-focused city planning of the 19th century with today’s sterile mega-projects and defends the idea that small, cohesive cities of around half a million people represent the optimal scale for human life.

Matthew brings up the concept of the “Civium,” as proposed by Jordan Hall, to ask whether the internet era makes traditional cities obsolete. Diamant agrees that technology allows decentralization but insists that smaller, well-designed cities—built around beauty, family, and walkable neighborhoods—are the key to a sane civilization. Real progress, he says, means scaling down, not building higher.

The two also explore the moral and spiritual dimensions of architecture. Diamant suggests that beauty is an act of love—a way of manifesting transcendence in stone. Together they discuss why societies that lose beauty also lose social cohesion, why middle-class families are essential to civic life, and how classical design naturally nurtures order, belonging, and gratitude.

In the final moments, the conversation turns personal and cultural: why Charleston, SC represents one of the last living examples of urban beauty in America, and how taxation, zoning, and civic will could either revive or destroy that legacy. The result is a profound meditation on architecture, civilization, and what it means to build for eternity—a call to rediscover beauty as resistance in an age of concrete conformity.

In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with thinker and entrepreneur Jordan Hall for a wide-ranging conversation about beauty, truth, goodness, and the challenges of modern civilization. Hall, co-founder of mp3.com and a key figure in the early internet streaming revolution, brings his unique background in technology, philosophy, and faith to a dialogue that touches everything from Christian theology to the future of urban planning. Together they explore how the transcendentals—beauty, goodness, and truth—intersect with our personal lives, our politics, and the spiritual destiny of culture.

Early in the conversation, Wilkinson frames beauty not simply as an aesthetic category but as a divine name, drawing on the writings of Dionysius and Aquinas. Hall responds by questioning how truth-based discourse can limit our apprehension of the beautiful, and whether we must learn to “presence beauty” rather than merely analyze it. This sparks a deep reflection on how different art forms can all reveal aspects of the same transcendent essence, even while each medium brings forward different facets of reality.

The dialogue turns to the difficult question of what makes something beautiful versus ugly. From abstract modern art to glass-and-concrete high-rises, Wilkinson and Hall wrestle with the criteria by which one can render judgment. Hall suggests that beauty itself is a faculty capable of defending its judgments without needing to be laundered through truth or goodness. This leads to an illuminating exploration of how propaganda often disguises itself by borrowing from truth and beauty.

Politics and propaganda naturally enter the discussion, as both men consider how mass media and later the internet shape our understanding of truth and values. Hall provides a penetrating analysis of how twentieth-century propaganda techniques optimized for television are breaking down in the digital age, creating both dangers and opportunities. They compare Soviet and Western approaches to truth distortion, asking what happens when societies abandon shared standards of reality.

From there, the conversation broadens into urbanism, architecture, and the fate of cities. Wilkinson references conversations with architects like Michael Diamant, while Hall argues provocatively that the urban itself is a category in decline. They discuss whether it is possible to have a truly beautiful city or whether the urban form is inherently tied to scarcity, opulence, and spiritual distortion. This thread leads naturally into reflections on cathedrals, new urbanism, and the tension between monumental architecture and the simplicity of monastic cells.

Hall situates these questions within a larger framework: the transition from the third industrial revolution (the digital/communication age) to the fourth industrial revolution (decentralization, bespoke production, AI, and new community forms). He argues that society is moving from scarcity to abundance, though currently abundance is often distorted into mere opulence. The key challenge is learning how to inhabit abundance spiritually, not just materially.

Abundance, in their view, will not look like endless skyscrapers or gilded palaces, but like the everyday beauty of love, family, and community—a grandmother rocking her grandchild, or the intimacy of shared worship. Wilkinson and Hall emphasize that the future of civilization may rest in our ability to unify beauty, goodness, and truth in the spirit of love, creating societies marked not by opulence but by genuine harmony.

The theological dimension remains central throughout. From Eucharistic gratitude to the New Jerusalem, from Schmemann to David Bentley Hart, the discussion roots cultural renewal in the Christian vision of creation as fundamentally beautiful and good. For Hall, the New Jerusalem is not merely a future city but the living body of Christ, distributed wherever believers gather in the spirit of God.

Orthodox iconography, Rothko, sacred art, and the problem of propaganda in beauty—this second interview with Fr. Silouan Justiniano takes us deep into the intersection of faith, modern art, and the revival of Christian tradition. From Mark Rothko’s sublime color fields to the Byzantine legacy of iconography, Fr. Silouan explores how authentic art transcends ideology and points toward the divine, while kitsch and propaganda reduce beauty to mere sentimentality or political utility. For artists, theologians, and lovers of beauty alike, this conversation offers profound insight into the meaning of sacred creativity in a modern world. Fr. Silouan contrasts Rembrandt’s material richness with the chromatic delicacy of Persian and Indian miniatures, arguing that each tradition bears unique spiritual weight through the materials and techniques it employs. Beauty, he insists, cannot be reduced to mere skill or novelty; it is bound to the inner life of the artist and the contemplative power of form itself.The discussion moves to the avant-garde, as Fr. Silouan examines artists like Rothko, Pollock, and Kandinsky, showing how abstraction, when undertaken with depth and authenticity, opens paths to contemplation and the sublime. Rather than gimmickry or intellectual posturing, true abstraction leads the viewer into silence, mystery, and wonder—an experience he connects to the apophatic theology of the Christian East.Yet not all art elevates. Fr. Silouan critiques propaganda in both religious and secular art, distinguishing authentic sacred beauty from works that merely flatter ideology. Whether in political art, sentimental Christian films, or saccharine paintings, he warns against creations that refuse to confront the tragic and broken realities of human life, preferring a false prettiness over truth and transcendence.Even Orthodox iconography, he notes, can be misinterpreted as propaganda when viewed through a secular lens. But true iconography is not mere messaging—it is theology in color, an invitation to prayer and transformation. It exists not to manipulate but to reveal divine beauty, drawing the soul into contemplation rather than coercion.From here, the conversation turns to the revival of Orthodox and Coptic iconographic traditions, offering practical wisdom for artists seeking to recover or reimagine sacred forms. Fr. Silouan stresses the need to study the masters, imitate excellence, and only then begin to synthesize a personal voice rooted in reverence rather than rebellion or trend-seeking.Music and liturgy emerge as parallel concerns: can the innovations of modern music be baptized into the Orthodox tradition without compromising prayerful stillness or theological depth? Drawing on his monastery’s own experience with Byzantine chant in English, Fr. Silouan describes a living tradition capable of growth without surrendering its inner spirit.Innovation, he argues, should flow not from ego or novelty-seeking but from love—love for tradition and love for new influences encountered with discernment. When artists embody this love, their work naturally unites fidelity and freshness, producing art that is alive, prayerful, and enduring rather than clever, shallow, or fashionable.From Rothko’s abstraction to Puerto Rican church architecture, from Byzantine chant to the theology of beauty, this interview unfolds as a meditation on art’s highest calling: to reveal reality truthfully, beautifully, and reverently. Watch now to explore how sacred art can resist propaganda, transcend ideology, and lead the soul toward the mystery of God. Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more conversations on art, faith, and beauty.Fr. Silouan Justinano's sites: https://hieromonksilouan.org/aboutmy sites:Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/MatthewWilkinsonMusic?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink💻 Website and blog: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

Will beauty really save the world—or have we misunderstood what that phrase truly means? In this in-depth interview, Fr. Silouan Justiniano joins The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast to tackle some of the most pressing questions about beauty, sublimity, iconography, and Christian art. From Dostoevsky’s famous line to the challenges of modern aesthetics, this conversation digs into what beauty actually is, how it relates to God, and why our understanding of sacred art often misses the mark. (The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 24) (This is part 1 of that interview)Fr. Silouan begins by exploring the classical model of beauty and how Western art history—from the Renaissance to the Romantic era—shaped both Orthodox and Catholic approaches to sacred images. He examines how Byzantine iconography was dismissed for centuries in favor of naturalistic and sentimental styles before experiencing a revival in the 20th century, and why this tension still affects the way churches think about art today.The discussion turns to the difference between East and West in Christian aesthetics. Fr. Silouan explains why Orthodox iconography tends to resist the overly emotional or sensuous, while Western art often embraces dramatic realism and pathos. Yet he also argues against simplistic East vs. West narratives, noting that sacred art has always existed on a spectrum of expression, shaped by theology, culture, and history.One highlight of the conversation is the deep dive into beauty and sublimity as philosophical categories. Drawing on thinkers like Pseudo-Dionysius, Aquinas, Kant, and Edmund Burke, Fr. Silouan unpacks how beauty is both terrifying and glorious—how it attracts and comforts, yet can also overwhelm with divine mystery. This tension, he suggests, is essential to understanding why beauty in Christian art cannot be reduced to mere prettiness or sentimentality. The conversation also touches on tradition and creativity—how the Church can preserve the integrity of sacred art without turning it into a lifeless museum piece. Fr. Silouan warns against both extremes: rigid traditionalism that fears innovation and reckless modernism that abandons theological grounding. Instead, he calls for a discerning synthesis that keeps sacred art rooted in theology, liturgy, and prayer, while allowing for authentic, Spirit-filled creativity.Fr. Silouan and Matthew Wilkinson explore how Western Rite liturgy, the Philokalia, and the Palamite tradition all shape Orthodox spirituality and aesthetics. They also discuss whether Western Christian piety—with its focus on Christ’s suffering and the drama of salvation—offers insights that Orthodox theology sometimes neglects, or whether it risks distorting the Church’s understanding of beauty and holiness.A recurring theme is the relationship between beauty, goodness, and truth—the transcendentals. Fr. Silouan draws on both classical and modern sources to argue that these realities are ultimately united in God, and that sacred art must reflect this unity rather than collapsing beauty into mere aesthetic pleasure or sentimentality. He even engages the Romantic movement, showing how artists like Caspar David Friedrich and William Blake point toward the divine even outside explicitly liturgical settings.Throughout the interview, viewers will encounter a rich tapestry of ideas: iconography and abstraction, tradition and modernity, aesthetics and theology, East and West. Fr. Silouan insists that beauty in Christian art is never neutral; it shapes our imagination, our worship, and even our souls. Sacred art, rightly understood, participates in God’s own beauty, drawing us toward Him in love and awe.Whether you are an artist, theologian, or simply someone seeking to understand the role of beauty in the Christian life, this conversation offers profound insights. By the end, you will see why the question “Will beauty save the world?” is far more complex—and more urgent—than it first appears.

Join us for an in-depth conversation with Chris Hoyt, composer and church musician, as we explore the rich tradition of Anglican church music and the ongoing debate between traditional and contemporary worship styles. This comprehensive discussion covers everything from organ repertoire to hymn arrangements, making it essential viewing for church musicians, worship leaders, and anyone interested in Anglican liturgical music. (The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast Episode 23)Traditional Anglican Music Heritage and Cultural Continuity - Chris Hoyt emphasizes that being Anglican encompasses more than theology and church government - it means embracing 500 years of artistic and cultural tradition. He argues against the casual dismissal of this heritage in favor of personal musical preferences, highlighting how Anglican chant serves as a "tremendous gift to the church Catholic" and a flexible tool for singing scriptures. The discussion delves into what constitutes appropriate church music, with both speakers agreeing that context is crucial. Hoyt shares examples of using challenging repertoire like Messiaen's works in specific liturgical moments, emphasizing that music must serve the worship experience rather than showcase artistic expression. They explore how the Psalms provide a model for incorporating a wide range of human emotions - from joy to anguish - into liturgical music.A significant portion of the conversation addresses the practical reality facing the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA), where many parishes only have guitar players rather than organists. Hoyt advocates for gradually growing congregations toward traditional music while acknowledging the integrity of contemporary Christian music. The speakers discuss successful examples of churches incorporating hymnal repertoire with contemporary instrumentation.We explore the complexities of blended worship services, with both musicians sharing their experiences. They discuss the technical challenges of combining traditional and contemporary elements effectively, including the importance of keyboard-driven arrangements over guitar-driven ones for aesthetic continuity. Specific examples include incorporating brass ensembles with both traditional hymns and contemporary songs during major feast days.We share our approaches to challenging repertoire, from Duruflé's works to Bach's organ compositions. They emphasize the importance of preparation and giving one's best effort as an offering to God, rather than pursuing perfection for its own sake. The conversation touches on the balance between artistic excellence and pastoral sensitivity in choosing appropriate music for different congregational contexts.Hoyt discusses his published collections, including "20 Hymn Voluntaries" and "75 Hymn Tunes Reharmonized," explaining how these works arose from practical liturgical needs. He shares specific examples of reharmonizations that reflect the emotional content of different hymn verses, particularly those dealing with penitential themes or the Passion of Christ.We include examples from Ethiopian Orthodox, Syriac, and other Eastern Christian traditions, exploring how different cultures approach the balance between reverence and celebration in communion music. This includes fascinating insights into liturgical dancing and the use of drums during the Eucharist in some traditions, challenging Western assumptions about appropriate worship music.We conclude with deeper theological reflections on music's role in Christian formation. Hoyt argues that church music should be the "fountainhead" that flows out to transform community life, bringing back simple pleasures like communal singing and dancing. They discuss how authentic Christian culture can serve as an "oasis in a desert place" by recovering God's good gifts in creation, including music's role in the cosmic choir of worship.