In this conversation, Stephan Livera and Kevin Loaec discuss the challenges and advancements in self-custody and multi-signature (multisig) wallets for businesses. They explore the reasons why many businesses are hesitant to adopt self-custody, including regulatory constraints and the current limitations of available tools.

The discussion highlights the evolution of multisig, the risks associated with centralized custodians, and the introduction of Liana Business as a tailored solution for businesses looking to implement multi-sig setups. They also dive into the importance of defining roles within a multisig framework, the mechanisms for recovery, and the future of recovery paths in Bitcoin.

Kevin also shares various aspects of Bitcoin custody, focusing on time locks, key management, and the importance of recovery pathways for businesses. He emphasizes the need for user-friendly solutions that mitigate risks associated with key loss and the complexities of managing multiple wallets.

The discussion also touches on the role of insurance in Bitcoin custody, the potential threats posed by large custodians, and the challenges of maintaining privacy while reusing keys across different setups.

Takeaways:

🔸Businesses often avoid self-custody due to regulatory concerns.

🔸The tools for self-custody are still not user-friendly enough for many businesses.

🔸Multisig wallets have evolved but still require technical knowledge.

🔸Centralization of funds in custodians poses significant security risks.

🔸Liana Business offers tailored solutions for business self-custody needs.

🔸Recovery pathways are crucial for ensuring access to funds.

🔸Insurance options can mitigate risks associated with key loss.

🔸Employee turnover can complicate key management in businesses.

🔸Replay protection is essential to prevent loss during forks.

🔸Future corporate custody solutions may involve hybrid models with banks.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Intro

(01:06) - Why aren't businesses doing self custody right now?

(02:55) - Evolution of multisig and Hardware Wallets

(07:51) - Are there centralization risks with custodians?

(10:24) - What is Liana Business?

(13:11) - Multisig configurations with Liana

(15:24) - Is Liana business optimal for businesses of all sizes?

(17:31) - How does Liana Business address role-based governance?

(25:03) - What are some of the recovery mechanisms in Liana?; Recovery paths

(29:04) - Understanding Time Locks and Wallet Management

(31:02) - Sponsor

(32:00) - Who are the key holders while setting up Liana business?; Insurance in Bitcoin custody

(37:06) - How should businesses manage key loss?

(38:47) - What are some of the threat vectors in Bitcoin custody?

(41:07) - What are the privacy concerns with hardware key reuse?

(48:23) - Seamless key management for businesses

(53:40) - What is Liana business’s USP?

(55:27) - What is the future of corporate Bitcoin custody?

(58:49) - Balancing convenience and security in Bitcoin custody

Links:

• https://x.com/KLoaec

• https://x.com/lianabitcoin

• https://lianawallet.com/business/

• https://x.com/wizardsardine

Sponsor:

• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

• Subscribe to the podcast

• Subscribe to Substack

Stephan Livera and Kevin Cai dive into the Bitcoin spam debate, breaking down the different camps in the community, the line between consensus and policy, and how transaction filters, dust limits, and Libre Relay affect the network. They explore mining economics, fee dynamics, and the subjective nature of what people call spam.

Kevin also discusses UTXO consolidation, decentralization, and how BRC-20 activity impacts the fee market. He explains the cultural differences behind spam opinions and the broader implications for Bitcoin’s ecosystem.

The conversation covers the challenges of Bitcoin development, including concerns around temporary fixes like RDTS, and why programmability matters for Bitcoin’s future utility.

Takeaways:

🔸The Bitcoin spam debate involves different camps with varying perspectives.

🔸Consensus refers to the agreement needed for transactions to be valid, while policy is more subjective.

🔸Libre Relay aims to align consensus with policy, promoting censorship resistance.

🔸Filters can influence transaction behavior, but their effectiveness is debated.

🔸Dust limits are a contentious topic, with arguments for and against their implementation.

🔸Transaction fees are influenced by market dynamics and user behavior.

🔸The Bitcoin network's resilience is tied to its decentralized nature and redundancy.

🔸Subjective judgments about transactions can lead to disagreements within the community.

🔸The future of Bitcoin transaction policies will likely evolve based on economic incentives and user behavior. I have a high time preference.

🔸Blocking inscriptions is unlikely to succeed.

🔸Libre Relay offers a low-friction solution for transactions.

🔸The role of miners is driven by economic incentives. Temporary fixes may lead to wasted time and effort.

🔸Bitcoin's permissionless nature allows for innovation without approval.

🔸Auto-updates contradict Bitcoin's ethos of user control.

🔸The RDTS poses risks to user transactions and programmability.

🔸Confiscatory risks arise from the RDTS's limitations.

🔸Programmability is crucial for Bitcoin's future applications.

🔸Arbitrary data embedding is inherent to communication systems.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Intro

(01:49) - What are the different camps in this debate?

(04:55) - What is consensus and how is it different from policy?

(11:23) - Libre Relay and its role in Bitcoin

(15:53) - Are certain transactions strictly harmful?

(19:30) - Do Dust filters work?; Dust limits and their implications

(29:59) - Orphan rates & mining dynamics

(35:14) - What is Spy mining?

(38:14) - Can all the small miners gather to punish spam on Bitcoin?; Decentralizing mining

(43:40) - Do Bitcoin miners shape reality?

(47:18) - Sponsor

(48:13) - What constitutes spam in Bitcoin?

(56:09) - Cultural perspectives on Bitcoin and spam

(1:03:15) - Are miners short-term focussed?; Bitcoin’s robust fee market

(1:11:39) - The unsustainable nature of hype

(1:19:50) - What are the hardware costs of running a node?; Connectivity & accessibility for Bitcoin nodes

(1:29:00) - Spam - incremental costs & time of transaction confirmation

(1:36:40) - Is it cost & time intensive for spammers to run Libre Relay?

(1:42:00) - What are the legal perspectives of data embedding in Bitcoin?

(1:49:47) - Is it feasible to block inscriptions?; Dilemma of temporary fixes

(2:01:50) - Kevin’s thoughts on RDTS (Reduced Data Temporary Softfork)

(2:21:53) - Is programmability important in Bitcoin?

(2:27:40) - Closing thoughts

Links:

• https://github.com/djkazic

• https://x.com/ProofOfCash

• https://lightning.engineering/team/

Sponsor:

• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

• Subscribe to the podcast

• Subscribe to Substack

In this conversation, Stephan Livera and Carel Van Wyk discuss the evolution of Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, focusing on the role of MoneyBadger in facilitating Bitcoin payments across South Africa. They explore the journey of integrating Bitcoin payments into major retailers, the technological innovations that have made this possible, and the implications for merchants and consumers alike. The discussion also touches on the broader context of Bitcoin's role in the global payment landscape and the ongoing debate about its function as a store of value versus a medium of exchange.

They explore the economic challenges faced by South Africans, the regulatory landscape, and the importance of demonstrating Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. The discussion also touches on the implications of capital gains tax, the strategies for promoting Bitcoin adoption, and the potential for Bitcoin to serve as a viable alternative to traditional payment systems. Carel emphasizes the urgency of using Bitcoin as money and the need for a shift in mindset among both consumers and regulators.

Takeaways:

🔸Bitcoin is now accepted at over 700,000 locations.

🔸MoneyBadger aims to make Bitcoin a practical currency.

🔸The Lightning Network has revolutionized retail payments.

🔸QR codes play a crucial role in Bitcoin transactions.

🔸Merchants are increasingly interested in accepting Bitcoin.

🔸Training staff on Bitcoin payments is no longer necessary.

🔸The integration of Bitcoin payments is gaining momentum in South Africa.

🔸Comparative analysis of Bitcoin payment solutions globally is essential.

🔸The debate between Bitcoin as a store of value and medium of exchange continues.

🔸Merchant acceptance of Bitcoin is growing, driven by lower fees. The NGU factor includes hodling, lending, and borrowing.

🔸Goals for Bitcoin adoption must be clearly defined.

🔸South Africa faces unique economic challenges that Bitcoin can address.

🔸Demonstrating Bitcoin as a medium of exchange is urgent.

🔸Regulatory perspectives can hinder Bitcoin's adoption as money.

🔸FATF regulations impact how countries approach Bitcoin.

🔸Tax implications can create barriers to Bitcoin spending.

🔸Top-down and bottom-up strategies can complement each other in adoption.

🔸Familiarity with Bitcoin can lead to increased spending and saving.

🔸The long-term vision includes establishing Bitcoin as a mainstream payment method.

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Intro

(01:24) - Who is Carel van Wyk?

(03:27) - The Journey of MoneyBadger

(07:28) - Innovations in payment processing

(11:32) - What is the role of QR codes in transactions?

(15:43) - Merchant’s perspective on Bitcoin payments

(20:20) - Comparing South African Bitcoin payments market with that of the U.S

(23:21) - Bitcoin’s use case: Store of Value vs Medium of Exchange

(29:55) - What is the impact of FATF regulations?; Bitcoin as money

(32:57) - Sponsor

(34:55) - What are the tax implications of spending Bitcoin?

(37:12) - Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up adoption strategies; The psychology of spending Bitcoin

(42:35) - The difference in volumes between Stablecoins vs. Bitcoin

(44:49) - What are the growth trends in Bitcoin spending?

(50:12) - What is Carel’s long term vision for Bitcoin adoption?

(51:38) - Closing thoughts

Links:

• https://x.com/carelvwyk

• https://x.com/MoneyBadgerPay

• https://www.moneybadger.co.za/

• SLP441 Hermann (Bitcoin Ekasi) - https://youtu.be/IuodlCgXswM

• https://x.com/LunoGlobal

• https://x.com/blinkbtc/status/1986767746843939069

Sponsor:

• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

• Subscribe to the podcast

• Subscribe to Substack