Effective youth ministry isn’t about changing more programs—it’s about deep listening and real relationships. Josh Packard, sociologist and researcher, explores how sacred listening transforms faith formation, the unique needs of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, and why scaling relational ministry requires curiosity and humility.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson asks Josh Packard to share the origins and findings of his research on relational ministry.
• Josh Packard explains that listening itself plays a formative role in faith development, not just as a trust-building step.
• Relational ministry requires new strategies for scalability, especially with large groups of young people.
• Josh Packard points out that ministry processes often lag behind the changing needs and contexts of young people.
• Churches should critically examine whether their programs and timelines match the lives and developmental journeys of today’s youth.
• Josh Packard observes that artificial time containers like confirmation years may not accommodate the real-life disruptions and traumas kids experience.
• Adapting ministry to stages and individualized journeys, rather than rigid timelines, better serves young people.
• Josh Packard emphasizes that trust in institutions has shifted toward trust rooted in personal, listening-based relationships.
• Practicing sacred listening involves a theological commitment to seeing others as made in the image of God (imago dei).
• Effective listening involves aligning communication with the needs and backgrounds of those being heard, rather than using a one-size-fits-all model.
• Recognizing patterns in conversations helps ministry leaders know whom to focus on, making it possible to scale relational ministry.
• Josh Packard recommends using tools to systematize relational information and connect young people to multiple trusted adults.
• A network of trusted adults (ideally five per young person) significantly boosts the impact of any ministry.
• Humility and genuine curiosity, not judgment or presumption, are essential for adults seeking to connect with and serve youth.
• Loneliness is now most acute among young people, and ministry approaches need to shift from large events to individualized relationship-building to overcome this challenge.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Future of Faith
• Sacred Listening Study
• Books mentioned:
  • Faithful Futures, by Josh Packard
• Related Episodes:
  • Identity, Belonging, Purpose, with Kara Powell
  • How Churches Can Engage and Support Gen Z, with Tanita Tualla Maddox

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Pastoral ministry is both a sacred joy and a heavy burden. Kurt Fredrickson, Associate Dean for Professional Doctoral Programs at Fuller Seminary, discusses the struggles pastors face, how church leadership is shifting in a changing culture, and why creating life-giving congregational environments matters more than ever.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Markus Watson introduces the episode by referencing the book That Their Work Will Be a Joy and asks why it needed to exist.
• Kurt Fredrickson describes how the book originated from pastors resonating deeply with the challenges and joys of ministry in a seminary lunch discussion.
• Ministry is tough and filled with conflicts on the outside and fears within, as reflected in Paul’s writings.
• Despite challenges, pastors find joy in being gripped by God and walking with people through both the best and hardest moments of life.
• Markus Watson shares his personal experience of moving through seasons of fear and joy in ministry, appreciating moments of goodness and kindness in congregational life.
• Ministry leaders enter sacred spaces in people’s lives, highlighting the privilege of bringing gospel and good news during life’s milestones and struggles.
• The Doctor of Ministry program provides “fire for ministry” and “oxygen for your soul,” supporting pastors with new skills and spiritual renewal.
• The Doctor of Global Leadership degree equips marketplace leaders and executives to integrate faith with work by tackling practical ministry challenges in their workplace.
• Pastors face unique challenges, including constant 24/7 expectations from both themselves and their congregations, often making it difficult to “take off the uniform.”
• Kurt Fredrickson shares an honest story of vulnerability with another pastor, revealing the value of mutual support and truthful conversations.
• Cohort-based models in Doctor of Ministry programs foster deep relationships and provide safe spaces for pastors to remove their masks and find encouragement.
• Ministry flows from the inside out, and leaders must be in a healthy place themselves to minister well and avoid causing harm within congregational cultures.
• Every congregation possesses its own culture, shaped by leaders, and has the potential to be either kind and life-giving or toxic and harmful.
• Being vulnerable as a pastoral leader is necessary, but requires discernment, as oversharing can sometimes lead to painful repercussions.
• Kurt Fredrickson emphasizes that pastors ultimately seek internal growth and love within their congregations, and asks congregants to be kind as pastors strive to embody what they teach.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Kurt Fredrickson – kurtf@fuller.edu
• Fuller Doctor of Ministry Program
• Fuller Doctor of Global Leadership Program
• Books mentioned:
  • That Their Work Will Be a Joy, by Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
• Related episodes:
  • 103. Willingness to Adapt: The Church After Covid, with Kurt Fredrickson and Cameron Lee
  • 109. Leadership as Learning, Part 2: Coaches and Cohorts, with Tod Bolsinger
  • 113. Flourishing Leadership, w

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Tim Alberta, journalist, author, and frequent cable news commentator, explores the complex relationship between political power and American evangelicalism. In this timely conversation, we discuss what happens when the church gets too cozy with empire, how pastors can navigate politically divided congregations, and what Jesus actually has to say about power. Essential listening for anyone trying to lead faithfully in polarized times.

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