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In a world that celebrates rapid growth, platform-building, and constant success, it’s easy to take on leadership strategies that promise bigger, better, and faster results. But when these approaches clash with the invitation of Jesus to embrace the cross, where does true, lasting influence come from?

In this episode, Nicole Massie Martin, author of Nailing It, unpacks the spiritual paradox at the heart of healthy leadership—how surrender, humility, and even seasons of struggle can form us as leaders and empower the people we serve.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCUDE:

• Christian leaders often merge values like maximizing and growing their ministries, risking a "resurrection only" mindset that ignores suffering.
• Markus Watson highlights that the moments of deepest closeness with God often emerge from times of pain.
• Nicole Martin frames power neutrally, stating that its impact depends on how leaders use it—to empower or to hoard.
• Power must be used for God’s glory and for empowering others, not for self-aggrandizement.
• Markus Watson admits that the temptation for influence and control is a real struggle in leadership, even when intentions are good.
• Nicole Martin explains that surrendering power as a leader looks like developing teams and creating an environment where others feel empowered to fulfill their calling.
• Nicole Martin shares a personal story of feeling powerless as a board member until another leader affirmed her authority and encouraged her participation.
• Empowerment should be modeled by leaders who intentionally invite others to use their own power and gifts.
• Ego is complex and influenced by cultural worldviews such as honor-shame, guilt-innocence, and power-fear.
• Nicole Martin emphasizes the importance of anchoring one’s self-worth in the love of God, not in achievement or shame.
• Markus Watson describes how personal failure and pain loosened his unhealthy grip on ego and led him to ground his worth in being God’s beloved.
• Nicole Martin asserts that healthy ego in leadership is characterized by deep confidence, humility, and openness, rooted in one’s belovedness by God.
• Leaders must recalibrate their pace and surrender speed to God’s timing, resisting the burnout that comes from adopting the relentless pace of the world.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Christianity Today
• Soulfire International Ministries
• Books mentioned:
  • Nailing It, by Nicole Massie Martin
  • Life of the Beloved, by Henri Nouwen
  • Abba’s Child, by Brennan Manning
  • Surrender to Love, by David Benner
  • Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter Scazero
  • Falling Upward, by Richard Rohr
• Related episodes:
  • 112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette
  • 252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai Auman

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In a post-pandemic world, what does it really mean to be a “small,” “mid-sized,” or even “very large” church? Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Thom Rainer’s recommendations to recategorize church size, reflect on the unique strengths and challenges of congregations of all sizes, and examine why church health and faithfulness matter more than impressive attendance numbers. Whether you’re a pastor, church leader, or simply curious about the evolving landscape of church leadership, this episode challenges us to rethink our assumptions—and reminds us that fruitful ministry comes in every size.

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this article by Thom Rainer: "The New Very Large Church."

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Church leaders reframe success by focusing on fruitfulness rather than congregation size.
• Pastors adapt their leadership style to match the unique needs of different-sized churches.
• Post-pandemic, churches redefine size categories to reflect new attendance realities.
• Faithful, missionally active congregations thrive regardless of their numerical growth.
• Discernment and subtraction become vital leadership skills when resources decrease.

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Work hurt is real, and ministry leaders aren’t exempt. Whether it’s being let go, navigating toxic work environments, or simply enduring deep disappointments, our vocational pain can shape us in ways we never expected—and often never wanted.

In this episode, author of When Work Hurts, shares her own journey through work hurt, explores the different ways leaders experience vocational pain, and offers practical and spiritual resources for healing and resilience.

THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:

• Meryl Herr shares her personal story of “work hurt” and how it led her to address the topic in her work and writing.
• Meryl Herr describes feeling disillusioned early in her career when her expectations for work did not align with reality, leading to discouragement and even unexpected job loss.
• Work hurt occurs when people sustain physical or psychological injuries in their workplace.
• Meryl Herr categorizes work hurt as stemming from toxic systems, unhealthy cultures, issues of job fit, and personal mistakes.
• Work hurt can be experienced as disappointment, disillusionment, or devastation, each having different causes and emotional impacts.
• Meryl Herr notes that people’s tolerance for disappointment, disillusionment, and devastation is highly individual.
• Significant numbers of workers experience work hurt, including burnout, discrimination, and disengagement, as reflected in recent research and statistics.
• Discrimination and harassment at work affect certain demographic groups more acutely, highlighting systemic injustice and inequity.
• Meryl Herr stresses the need for individuals to acknowledge and process their work-related pain, rather than internalizing it or transmitting it to others.
• If people do not transform their work pain, they risk transmitting it as cynicism, projection, or stress in personal and family relationships.
• Community support, honest conversation, prayer—especially lament—and listening to God are central strategies for healing from work hurt.
• Meryl Herr encourages practices of discerning God’s presence and call, likening vocational discernment to “wayfinding” that requires attention to context, one’s gifts, and God’s invitation.
• Being called to a vocation or job does not mean one is exempt from pain or suffering; Meryl Herr and Markus Watson both connect this to biblical examples of hardship in the midst of calling.
• Pastors play an important role by understanding and addressing the work hurt in their congregations and by providing practical, emotional, and spiritual support.
• Meryl Herr recommends cultivating “everyday faithfulness,” showing up and doing the daily work set before us as a foundational way to keep moving forward through disruption, loss, and fear.

RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:

• Meryl Herr:
  • Website – www.merylherr.com
  • DePree Center for Leadership
• Books mentioned:
  • When Work Hurts, by Meryl Herr
  • Falling Upward, by Ruchard Rohr
• Related episodes:
  • 114. Meaningful Work,

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