Amy lost Roy two weeks before we recorded this. Roy was her cat for seventeen years—what she calls her "heart animal." If you've ever had one, you know what that means. If you haven't, you probably think we're being dramatic about a pet, and you can go to hell.

We talked about grief, but also about mortality and meaning and why our culture is so fucking terrible at dealing with death. Amy's been wrestling with the big questions lately—what happens when we die, how to build a coherent worldview without traditional religion, why some people treat relationships like transactions.

She's also gotten really good at telling people no. There's a story in here about someone who kept pestering her for career advice while she was dealing with Roy's death, and her response is pretty much perfect.

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Amy Volas is the founder of Avenue Talent Partners and one of the most authentic voices on LinkedIn about leadership, relationships, and what it means to show up as a whole human in professional spaces. She's currently finishing her first book and believes in calling people on their bullshit—not to be mean, but to hold them to the standards they set for themselves.

Connect with Amy: LinkedIn Profile

Learn more: Avenue Talent Partners

In this wide-ranging conversation, Owen sits down with fellow "reluctant lawyer" Pat Patino to explore the tension between intensity and minimalism, the challenge of getting past the 90% threshold, and what it means to live an impractical life.

Topics discussed:

The realization that intensity might be a feature, not a bug

Why both hosts stopped identifying closely with being attorneys

The Chinese literati and the lost art of being multiple things

Pat's decision to stop practicing law and embrace uncertainty

The coloring book approach to life and work

How Kid Cudi's "Pursuit of Happiness" captures a moment of transition

The spiritual nature of legal practice and dealing with various forms of "death"

Why most legal work is just "Control A, Control C, Control V"

The crumble cookie-ification of professional services

How AI will reshape the legal profession

The importance of human connection in an increasingly digital world

The challenge of proving you're "real" in an age of deep fakes

Guest info: Pat Patino can be found on LinkedIn and at newfangled.legal. Check out his podcast "The Newfangled Lawyer" on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Have you ever noticed that when leaders of organizations talk very loudly about making change, almost nothing meaningful changes?

Anastasia Boyko is a rare true changemaker and she was gracious enough to take a beat and talk with us about a whole bevy of topics from her unique vantage. Anastasia was born in Soviet Ukraine, made her way to Utah with her mother before the wall fell, worked her way to Yale Law and Manhattan Biglaw, into the world of legal tech, back to Yale to create an innovative leadership program, before moving to home/not-home Utah to find some new trouble to cause.

She's even more interesting than that recitation of things suggests.

You can find Anastasia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasiaboyko/

Tony Albrecht joins us for a master class in trolling me on TSwift before we inevitably jump into a long discourse on creativity and the lunacy of creatives.

No more need be said. Enjoy.

Find Tony on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tony-albrecht/

Visit CONTENDER: https://contenderllc.com/

Robb Gilbear messaged me several weeks back and remarked how we were living on opposite ends of the child-rearing spectrum. I knew immediately that I had to have him join Sonder Union to talk through all the feels. I can't tell you how soothing it is speaking with Robb, although I suspect you'll get a sense from listening to this episode.

You can find Robb here:

1. LinkedIn
2. GrowthHabit
3. Die Before They Do

Some episodes of Sonder Union are a little serious and dour. I love those episodes, but this one certainly isn't one of them. Chris Sellers joins me, in his Trilby, to talk all about creativity, the way we torture and forgive ourselves, and the way we interact with the stories other people want to write for us.

Check out Chris at all of these places:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/c-s-sellers/

https://www.cssellers.com

Murray Gottheil joins Sonder Union to discuss how to think about work, retirement, and surviving a career in law. One of the most interesting figures in the legal corner of LinkedIn, Murray is as funny as he is opinionated. In other words, my kinda people.

You can find Murray here:

https://www.murraygottheil.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/murray-gottheil-58787b1/

Kyle Holden joins Sonder Union for a wide-ranging discussion between two folks with ADHD. This means there are many threads that seem incoherent that do get pulled together after what seems like too long a time. One of the things I love about the ADHD brain is that we can see connections between and among things that get incorporated in unpredictable ways in stories and what appear to be meandering discussions but end up being anything but.

Kyle and his wife, Lily Schurra, are amazing people and instant friends...even though I've spoken with them a sum total of three times. They own an amazing legal tech consultancy, which you can and should check out at: https://www.lolilegal.com/