Mary Katharine Ham is a journalist and political commentator who’s worked for both CNN and Fox. Her book End of Discussion: How the Left’s Outrage Industry Shuts Down Debate, Manipulates Voters, and Makes America Less Free (and Fun) came out in 2015 but basically predicts the next decade. A “natural contrarian,” Ham came to conservatism at a time when culture (and her Durham hometown) was dominated by liberals. It’s made her a rigorous and original thinker, clear-eyed and calm amid the political circus.

She talks with Nancy and Sarah about why Trump isn’t a conservative, how her faith helped her endure the death of her first husband, and how that experience shaped her perspective on Erica Kirk’s role since her husband Charlie’s assassination, when Ham found herself playing “widow defense.” We also talk the Trump-Mamdani summit, motherhood, and the utility of political commentary.

Also discussed:

* It’s good to have a weirdo in the room.

* Unintended lessons of a ‘90s public-school education

* MKH early inspiration: Rachel Campos-Duffy from The Real World

* “Politics is just not fun,” and yet…

* What is conservatism?

* What Obama and Trump have in common

* The Russiagate delusion

* Marjorie Taylor Greene folds

* The Tetris movie: Go, capitalism!

* “Charlie himself, as an example, was a bulwark against so many bad examples.”

* Admiration for George W’s post-presidential ride into the sunset

* The radical efficiency of freaking people out

* The hunger to find hypocrisy among people of faith

* A sunnier portrait of motherhood

* “God is good no matter what.”

* The necessary solace of Jeremiah 29:11

* Enthusiasm plus delusion is a very bad combination, and yes, we’re looking at you, Candace Owens

* Mary Katherine to Nancy: “Get lifting.”

* Sarah “resisted Apple TV for a heroic amount of time.”

Plus, Kelsea Ballerini wonders what she missed, the over-selling of freezing one’s eggs, Usha Vance gives good advice, and much more!

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Nancy and Sarah discuss political writer Olivia Nuzzi, who became the main character on Twitter this week when an excerpt from her new memoir, published in Vanity Fair, coincided with a bombshell story by ex-fiancee Ryan Lizza. The scandal included cameos by broadcaster Keith Olbermann, politician Mark Sanford, and Livvy, a pop-music persona Nuzzi created at 16.

Nuzzi is a talented journalist who’s appeared on this podcast. Last year, she lost her gig at New York magazine after news hit about an entanglement with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. This sordid new chapter created a feeding frenzy among (many less talented) journalists, but Sarah and Nancy try to push past the schadenfreude to understand how we got here: the little girl drawn to the spotlight, fluent in the double-speak of politicians, and the ambitious young woman who lost both parents by 30.

Also discussed:

* That time Patty Hearst and the SLA hid out in Disneyland

* The magic of the open road

* “I like messy people.”

* A political profile vs. a celebrity profile

* Rule #1: Don’t sleep with your sources.

* Rule #2: Do not look through your significant other’s stuff

* The Keith Olbermann of it all

* Vanity Fair and glamour of the 90s

* Remember that time a governor from New Jersey was caught having sex with a dude, and it became a whole giant scandal? Yeah, us neither

* More Monmouth Musings could use a better name …

* Livvy, the “morally bankrupt” and “undeniably infectious” pop tartlet

* The dirty-girl era of Ke$ha and Lady Gaga

* The exhibitionism of the iPhone

* Sarah will lay her chips on Nuzzi’s future

Plus, Sarah can see alcoholism in people’s eyes, Nancy reconnects with a former flame, a nearly unbelievable story about a 38-year-old unopened letter from Ken Kesey and much more!

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Nancy and Sarah discuss a viral essay from British Vogue, “Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing Now?” The free-wheeling conversation touches on dating changes over the generations, the different ways women tell stories about their relationships online, and how women over the past half century have tried to balance independence and attachment.

Also discussed:

* First Kurt Rambis reference, for those who celebrate

* Sarah gets her colors done, has hair problems

* We need a producer!

* Our email, for the record: smokeempodcast@gmail.com

* Please, we beg you, no more videotaped marriage proposals

* On men traveling alone: “Who did that guy kill?”

* Influencer culture and the egg-freeze flex

* Was the world built for “men’s comfort”?

* Do men want to be protectors? Do women want them to be? A debate!

* Having a boyfriend is… Republican?

* Might we have a moratorium on quotes from content providers living in Dimes Square?

* “I just want a spinach salad…”

* The Hulu show that almost broke up your podcasters

Plus, a flashback to an early 20th century Edith Wharton banger, the glory that is Sebastian Junger, and much more!

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