Ken Liu: Renowned sci-fi author of The Paper Menagerie, The Hidden Girl and Other Stories, and his new book All That We See or Seem; producer of Pantheon; futurist who works with world governments to prepare for what’s ahead. When will AI become conscious and how would we even know if it did? We talk about the decoupling of intelligence and consciousness in today's LLMs, and the ethical questions in regulating models.Ken walks me through a thought experiment to understand the singularity: what uploading our minds might actually look like, a theme explored in his Netflix series Pantheon. If we replace our minds piece by piece with silicon, at what point do “we” disappear? In the age of AI, when many technical skills are made obselete, who are the experts of craft? We explore why falling in love with AI may be grounded in our religious history, and is an act of falling in love with our own reflection. We discuss how phones have killed daydreaming and access to the collective unconscious, and the mysteries of psychedelics, natural intelligence, and the universe at large. “We are willing to die for the sake of a story. In fact, it’s the only thing humans have ever willingly died for.” Most of human life, Ken argues, has two levels of explanation: 1.Evolution2.Stories — the way we make sense of the world and find meaning in it.EPISODE LINKS:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sabrina-halper-show/id1627753991Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/76SlB8fNKs57VzaGeQFi4j?si=d2fb042d7e9f4c44 TIMESTAMPS:0:00 — Introduction1:41 — Mechanism vs meaning: what science explains vs what stories explain5:47 — What is consciousness, really?6:42 — Psychedelics and the mystery of the mind7:55 — Can intelligence exist without consciousness?12:10 — How mind-uploading might actually work (and the Singularity)19:15 — Falling in love with AI - why “imaginary companions” aren’t new23:40 — Modern day myths around romantic love 27:15 — Preservation vs. transformation of humanity 32:37 — When technical skill disappears: what is craft?40:00 — When using AI actually makes us feel more human41:05 — Writing, imagination, and “All That We See or Seem”47:35 — Dreams, reality, and how we know what’s real54:45 — Privacy in an age of digital selves58:03 — Data, the commons, and how knowledge should be sharedFollow Ken: https://x.com/kyliu99 Buy his new book All That We See or Seem : https://www.amazon.com/All-That-Seem-Julia-Novel/dp/1668083175

Shownotes:

0:00 : Introduction

1:37 : Growing up in rural Brazil

3:44 : Getting to the United States

5:15 : Reading Richard Dawkins, getting involved in the climate movement, learning about nuclear

12:05 : A historical deep dive: What went wrong with nuclear energy?

24:32 : What really happened at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl - separating fear from facts.

30:43 : Deaths from Nuclear Vs. Fossil Fuels

37:15 : Nuclear Proliferation Risk

42:17 : Gaps in the US supply chain & AI’s need for more energy

49:40 : Promise vs. reality of SMRs (Small modular reactors)

54:54 : Designing energy grid for the US

59:10 : Why are Germany, Taiwan, and Australia shutting down nuclear energy programs?

1:02:10 : Saving California’s last nuclear plant Diablo Canyon

1:08:24 : Today’s nuclear renaissance

Isa Fulford is only a few years out of school and is already the mind behind Deep Research and ChatGPT Agent - two of the most important and ambitious projects at OpenAI. She’s a close friend from our Stanford days, someone I adore, and someone the world is going to hear a lot more about in coming years.

We talk about how her upbringing and violin training shaped the discipline behind her professional work. Isa breaks down how these systems were built, how they think, and where AI is heading, from agents talking to agents to a future where humans guide the work instead of doing it.SHOWNOTES:

0:00 Introduction

1:50 Early life, math, music, and discipline

4:40 Stanford, Journey into AI, & joining OpenAI

7:15 Deep Research, building datasets, & early indications

11:35 Building ChatGPT Agent

13:47 What comes next from OpenAI?

15:58 Personal Use of AI

16:40 Future of Internet + Agent Communication

19:03 Personal AI agents

20:06 Safety Risks 22:44 AGI

24:03 Agents for personal growth

25:00 How AI is changing the way we work

27:43 Talent war and poaching

28:30 Lessons from Sam Altman: raise ambition level

30:18 Rapid questions

EPISODE LINKS:

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SabrinaHalper

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sabrina-halper-show/id1627753991