Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven.

To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message.

To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr

----

In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.

For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1.

About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.

When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits.

This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org).

Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds.

The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.

Thanks to

• Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid.
• The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story.

In our season three finale, we tell the full story of Steve Scott's lost records that Larry Norman produced in 1978, but never released. Moving Pictures (and its companion Close Ups) were victims of short-sighted Christian music industry executives and a myriad of bad circumstances after being recorded and they have lived in lore among frustrated record collectors for decades. Now they are close to finally being released.

As Larry Norman was dying in 2008 he made a last request of his brother, who goes by Charles Normal, to ensure that the Steve Scott records be released someday. Charles has digitized the original tracks and mixed them for the first time and now he and Steve are raising money on Kickstarter to give the albums a proper release.

Steve and Charles join us today to tell the full story and play some of the never-before-published songs.

The Steve Scott Kickstarter

---

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars-themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie.

Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s.

Adam Voith's novel in progress that is mentioned in this episode.

The film adaptation of Don Miller's best-selling book, Blue Like Jazz, is mentioned in this episode. It was directed by the legendary Steve Taylor.

---

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock.

Now David has reissued the book as "Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World" or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)."

Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne welcome David back to the show to discuss both editions of the book, his relationships with musicians inside and outside the Christian music industry and his depiction in the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life."

---

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

--

PROMO SWAP: "When We Were on Fire" is a full-cast audio drama podcast based on the faith deconstruction memoir by Addie Zierman. Created by Lizzie Goldsmith, the podcast stars Aria Sivick as Addie, and features original music by Frank Sheffield.

The English worship band Delirious (technically Deliriou5?) certainly changed church music and probably influenced a young Chris Martin of Coldplay, but was their lasting impact on music bigger than Nirvana's? That's the case made in a social media video by our guest today, Gabriel Wilson.

Wilson is a veteran of worship bands both as a musician and producer. He once toured with Delirious and has produced Delirious singer Martin Smith in the studio. He also has a deep respect for Nirvana. Andrew and Leah dig into his case for Delirious having a larger impact on music writ large than Nirvana.

Gabriel's Video

---

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

Aaron Carnes is an expert on ska, but is self-aware enough that his book (and podcast) are called In Defense of Ska. Like Christian rock, when folks admit to liking ska they often brace for being mocked. Aaron knows something about both worlds since he was only allowed to listen to CCM growing up.

This conversation is wide-ranging, covering the roots of ska (Madness didn't invent it), the waves of reinvention it has survived and how it was put to use by Christians to good effect (Five Iron Frenzy, The Israelites, Runforyerlife) and questionable effect (The OC Supertones, B.O.B.). Plus a little story about Sonseed.

----

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

The Charlie Kirk Memorial in Arizona was a singular event that blended religion and politics in powerful ways. It featured a lot of Christian music. Brandon Lake, Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Kari Jobe Carnes, Cody Carnes and Tiffany Hudson all led the 100,000 people in the stadium and estimated 20 million watching online in worship songs. To analyze what it means that these artists performed at this event and how their music functioned in the event, we're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and David Gate.

Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a musicologist, worship music correspondent for Christianity Today, and co-author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Failed a Generation of Evangelicals.

David Gate is a poet, writer and visual artist who used to lead worship in England, Ireland and the American South. His collection of poems and essays is called A Rebellion of Care.

----

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.

After 15 weekly episodes in season 3, Leah and Andrew chat about what else they've been up to this fall, what episodes they've especially enjoyed this season, and what they're looking forward to in upcoming episodes.

--

Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off.

Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336.

If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount)

Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr

If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show.

You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com

Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments.

Buy RTDR merch here.