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Imagine a world where our most vulnerable babies are protected without automatically severing their connection to their family. That's the vision Lauren Seager-Smith brings as Chief Executive of the For Baby's Sake Trust, where they're revolutionizing responses to domestic abuse during pregnancy and early childhood.

The numbers are staggering: approximately 50,000 babies under two are referred to social care in England each year due to domestic abuse, with 2,000 entering out-of-home care. Each placement costs taxpayers £281,000 annually—but that's just the economic cost. The human toll is immeasurable.

Lauren shares how their innovative program works therapeutically with both parents from pregnancy through the baby's second birthday. Unlike traditional approaches that focus exclusively on mothers or default to family separation, they engage fathers who use abusive behaviors while simultaneously supporting mothers and protecting children. What makes this approach particularly effective is its recognition that pregnancy represents a critical intervention point where many parents are highly motivated to change.

The program reveals profound insights about intergenerational trauma. Among participating parents, 73% of fathers and 74% of mothers have experienced six or more adverse childhood experiences themselves. "For many of our fathers, they want a different story for their baby," Lauren explains. This motivation becomes the foundation for intensive work around emotional regulation, trauma processing, and building attunement with their infant.

Perhaps most striking is the economic case for prevention. At approximately £9,000 per year per family—versus £281,000 for a child in care—programs like For Baby's Sake offer a fiscally responsible alternative to our current crisis-response systems. Yet despite this clear math, governments continue prioritizing expensive reactive measures over prevention.

This conversation challenges us to think differently about protecting children. Can we create systems that hold those who use violence accountable while supporting their capacity to change? Can we recognize the profound connection between maternal and child welfare without placing impossible burdens on mothers? Most importantly, can we find the courage to invest in prevention, even when immediate crises demand our attention?

Join us for this thought-provoking discussion that reimagines what's possible when we truly commit to breaking cycles of harm and supporting healthy family connections from the very beginning of life.

Learn more at: https://forbabyssake.org.uk/

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

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What if ending violence against women isn't just about asking men to stop bad behavior, but inviting them to embrace a more meaningful definition of strength and leadership? This question forms the heart of our powerful conversation with Jackson Katz, Ph.D., one of the world's foremost male voices in the movement to prevent gender-based violence.

Katz joins us to discuss his groundbreaking new book "Every Man: Why Violence Against Women is a Men's Issue"—the first book published by a major publisher addressing men's violence with men as a primary target audience. With decades of experience pioneering bystander intervention training and educating on these issues, Katz offers profound insights into why this particular moment demands men's full engagement with ending violence against women.

Together, we explore how masculinity is "policed" through social mechanisms that keep thoughtful men silent. The modern lexicon of shame—terms like "simp," "cuck," and "beta male"—serves to isolate men who might otherwise speak out against misogyny or violence. Yet Katz argues persuasively that true strength isn't demonstrated through domination but through moral courage, resilience, and standing against injustice.

We delve into how traditional mental health approaches often fail to address violence, how some of the most prominent voices speaking to men today actively undermine healthy masculinity, and why institutional accountability must accompany individual leadership. Particularly riveting is Katz's argument that prevention work must be framed as a leadership expectation, not merely an optional hope.

This conversation doesn't shy away from uncomfortable truths—including how patriarchal systems harm men themselves through what Katz calls "the triad of men's violence": violence against women, violence against other men, and violence against themselves. Yet it ends with an affirming vision of how men and women, with their fundamentally similar emotional makeups, can find connection instead of conflict.

Whether you're a survivor, a male ally, or someone seeking to understand these issues more deeply, this episode offers invaluable perspectives on creating a world where all people can live without violence or threat.

Read more about Jackson's work here: https://www.jacksonkatz.com/

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

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When Bruce Bieber's phone rang at 2:50 AM, his world shattered. Three deputies stood at his door with news that his daughter Abby, a dedicated police officer known for her compassion and professionalism, had been murdered by her boyfriend – a fellow officer with a documented history of domestic violence that had been systematically minimized by their department.

This powerful conversation exposes the deadly consequences of law enforcement's failure to address domestic violence within their ranks. Bruce shares how his daughter's killer had previously threatened another girlfriend at gunpoint, yet received only a token reprimand to "stop dating her" rather than facing criminal charges or meaningful discipline. This pattern of protection enabled him to continue serving while posing a lethal threat to those closest to him.

The discussion delves into what experts call the "data desert" surrounding officer-involved domestic violence (OIDV) – the deliberate lack of tracking and transparency that shields departments from accountability. With estimates suggesting 40-60% of officers may perpetrate domestic abuse, this creates a horrifying reality where victims call 911 only to have their cases potentially handled by officers who are abusers themselves.

We examine how well-intentioned policies like zero-tolerance rules and firearms restrictions for domestic abusers can backfire, sometimes discouraging reporting rather than promoting safety. Bruce advocates for pattern-based approaches that allow departments to address concerning behaviors before they escalate to violence, potentially saving lives like his daughter's.

For survivors trapped in relationships with law enforcement officers, Bruce offers hard-earned wisdom: recognize the warning signs, understand that leaving is the most dangerous time, and connect with experts who can help create a comprehensive safety plan. His message resonates with the urgency of someone who's lost everything and is determined that no other family should experience this preventable tragedy.

If you're concerned about domestic violence in your community or workplace, join us in demanding accountability, transparency, and change. Together, we can ensure that those who wear the badge truly protect and serve all members of society – including their own families.

Other OIDV Related Episodes
Episode 27: “How much crime are you willing to let your police commit?”

Episode 26: Listening to the voices of survivors of officer-involved dom

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

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David Mandel and Ruth Reymundo Mandel share highlights from the 2025 Safe & Together Asia Pacific Coercive Control and Children's Conference in Melbourne, Australia. Listen in as they reflect on key moments and the impact of bringing together over 400 practitioners from across the region. Here are some of the highlights:

• Commitment to equity through a hybrid format that allowed participation from remote locations despite the technical and financial challenges
• First-ever family law track showcasing four years of work with the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia
• Launch of e-learning resources for independent Children's Lawyers that will reach over 1,200 practitioners
• Focus on decolonizing practice and centering indigenous perspectives through keynote speakers like Aboriginal lawyer Amanda Morgan
• Workshop on ethically including survivor expertise in organizations without exploitation or tokenism

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

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In this episode, David and Ruth speak with Dr. Annie Donaldson about her groundbreaking research examining domestic abuse in Scotland's rural, remote and island communities. Dr. Donaldson, an honorary research fellow at the University of Strathclyde and longtime expert in gender-based violence, shares insights from interviews with survivors and professionals about the unique dynamics of domestic abuse in small, interconnected communities.

Key topics include:

• The "paradox of proximity" - how physical isolation combines with close social connections to create unique challenges for survivors in rural areas
• How community connections can be both supportive and entrapping for survivors experiencing domestic abuse
• How perpetrators exploit small community dynamics and relationships to maintain control
• The incredible protective efforts of survivors, including maintaining children's routines and wellbeing despite multiple forced moves
• The impact of the Safe & Together Model in helping professionals challenge victim-blaming attitudes and better support survivors

Dr. Donaldson discusses how traditional social work approaches focused solely on "problem-solving" often miss the emotional realities and strengths of survivors including:

• Validating and building on survivors' existing protective efforts
• Recognizing how historical distrust of authorities impacts help-seeking
• Using technology and remote options to increase accessibility

This episode provides vital insights for any professional working with survivors in rural, remote or close-knit communities while highlighting the universal dynamics of entrapment that transcend geography.

Resources:

• Safe & Together Family & Friends Ally Guide
• Dr. Annie Donaldson's research blog on rural domestic abuse
• The story of Glasgow’s Magdalene Institution by Dr. Anni Donaldson

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

Send us a text

"Single mothers are essentially the unofficial reserve army of prevention agents in this country and around the world." - Jess Hill

In this episode, David and Ruth speak with Australian experts Jess Hill and Professor Michael Salter about their groundbreaking paper challenging current approaches to preventing gender-based violence. With Australia's commitment to end gender-based violence within a generation, yet concerning increases in sexual violence and domestic homicides, this timely discussion explores why traditional prevention strategies focused on changing social norms and attitudes have fallen short.

Key points discussed include:

• The limitations of measuring prevention success through attitude surveys rather than actual reductions in violence
• Why structural interventions and accountability are essential alongside education efforts
• The need to focus resources on high-risk scenarios and populations, particularly traumatized youth
• How systems often fail to provide practical help when survivors, especially young people, disclose abuse
• The importance of shifting from "calling out" to "calling in" approaches when addressing harmful behaviors
• Why prevention efforts must acknowledge the reality that most people have been impacted by violence rather than assuming a "clean slate"

Related episodes:

• Season 2 Episode 12: How Coercive Control Harms Child Safety & Wellbeing: An Interview With Jess Hill

Additional Resources:

• See What You Made Me Do: Power, Control and Domestic Abuse by Jess Hill
• Childlight Research Centre - University of New South Wales

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

Send us a text

In this episode, David and Ruth explore why coercive control must be at the center of how we understand the impact of domestic abuse on children. Moving beyond just focusing on physical violence or whether children "witnessed" abuse, they discuss how perpetrators' patterns of behavior can devastate children's wellbeing in multiple ways.

David and Ruth examine how coercive control by perpetrators can rob children of vital resources including economic stability, healthcare, education, family connections, and safety. They discuss how these patterns intersect with systemic oppression and vulnerabilities, creating additional layers of harm that perpetrators exploit.

The conversation highlights how a coercive control framework helps professionals better assess perpetrators' harmful parenting choices, understand survivors' protective efforts, and make more informed decisions about child safety. The hosts emphasize the importance of documenting specific harms to children and challenging perpetrators who use culture or religion to justify control.

They emphasize that the costs of not addressing these issues - in terms of children's wellbeing and broader societal impact - are too high to ignore.

Related Episodes

Season 2 Episode 12: How Coercive Control Harms Child Safety & Wellbeing: An Interview With Researcher Dr. Emma Katz

Season 2 Episode 10: Trauma-Informed Is Not The Same As Domestic Violence-Informed: A Conversation About The Intersection Of Domestic Violence Perpetration, Mental Health & Addiction

Season 1 Episode 1: Coercive Control And Consent

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events

Send us a text

In this thought-provoking first episode of 2025, David and Ruth explore how displacement-based responses to domestic violence reflect and reinforce gender double standards while often creating additional vulnerabilities for survivors and their children. Recording from the Azores, they examine how the expectation that victims must leave their homes to find safety places unfair burdens on survivors while failing to hold perpetrators accountable.

Key discussion points include:

• How displacement-based responses arose historically when women had limited legal and economic rights
• Why forcing survivors to leave their homes, financial assets, and support networks creates new vulnerabilities
• How displacement can enable post-separation coercive control and increase risks to children
• The limitations of defining "safety" only in terms of immediate physical danger or lethality
• Why systems need to expand their definition of safety to include stability, wellbeing, and survivor autonomy
• How child protection and other systems can inadvertently punish survivors who don't leave while failing to hold perpetrators accountable for creating unsafe conditions

David and Ruth discuss concrete ways to move beyond displacement-based practices, including:

• Centering survivor choice, autonomy and definitions of safety/wellbeing
• Holding perpetrators accountable for how their behavior disrupts family stability
• Creating a fuller range of intervention options beyond emergency shelter
• Reframing "failure to protect" to focus on perpetrators' choices that endanger children

Check out these related episodes
Season 5 Episode 12: Challenging the Gospel of Sacrifice: Faith, Domestic Abuse, and Institutional Transformation

Season 5 Episode 9: Partnering vs. Practicing: The Hidden Bias in Professional Crisis Work

Season 5 Episode 8: The Myth of the Domestic Violence Incident

Now available! Mapping the Perpetrator’s Pattern: A Practitioner’s Tool for Improving Assessment, Intervention, and Outcomes The web-based Perpetrator Pattern Mapping Tool is a virtual practice tool for improving assessment, intervention, and outcomes through a perpetrator pattern-based approach. The tool allows practitioners to apply the Model’s critical concepts and principles to their current case load in real

Check out David Mandel's new book "Stop Blaming Mothers and Ignoring Fathers: How to transform the way we keep children safe from domestic violence."

Visit the Safe & Together Institute website

Start taking Safe & Together Institute courses

Check out Safe & Together Institute upcoming events