Tyler Parker, David Frank, and TJ introduce a new monthly-ish podcast format called the Kinship Lab, created to reflect on recent interviews/events or other emerging ideas. Comment below on any questions or topics you’d like to see in the future.

In this first Kinship Lab, they reflect on a recent two-day summit of a handful of Side B leaders, emphasizing growing capacity for fruitful conversation amid differences and experienced trauma. Questions at play: What is Side B? How should Side B engage trans and gender-dysphoria experiences theologically and pastorally? How can Side B respond to ongoing debates about celibate partnerships? Can Side B leadership develop breadth, depth, accountability, and maybe even create a common covenant? Is Side B a gift for Q/SSA people, or for the whole church?

00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab

02:23 Future of Side B | Why Call It Project

04:25 Summit Setup and Hopes

05:18 Building Trust Through Tension

09:47 Defining Side B Today

14:11 Gender Questions Rising

17:16 Celibate Partnerships Debate

18:53 Learning From Experts

24:01 Global Voices Needed

26:38 Leader Accountability and Unity

29:51 Movement Longevity and Visibility

32:00 Towards a Side B Covenant

33:28 Gender and Queer Culture

35:24 Unity and Accountability

40:57 Why Statements Matter

42:56 Side B as Liberatory Gift

44:45 Theology Group Takeaways

51:44 Closing and Next Topics

55:14 Listener Feedback and Farewell

Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself.

★ About Our Guest

Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at eve@buildingcatholic.org.

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

(00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic

(02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership

(08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling

(15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust?

(18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage

(27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship

(34:09) How Eve met her partner

(39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership?

(48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families

(54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin?

(57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows?

(58:18) Loving people means choosing pain

(01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships

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★ Links and References

Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/

Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender.

Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change

Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

(02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood"

(07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans

(08:25) Defining: Gender

(12:09) Do souls have a gender?

(15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order?

(19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out?

(25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family

(32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve?

(39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically"

(42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric

(48:01) Connections to transhumanism

(53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people

(59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female

(01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology

(01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★