Lucy and Karen get honest about one of HR’s toughest challenges: helping leaders and managers actually change how they behave. Drawing on their own “humiliations” as former HR Directors, they unpack why influencing senior leaders can feel so hard – from fear of getting it wrong, to loss of status, to simple overload – and introduce four familiar resistance types: the Defiant, the Intellectual, the Busy Operator and the Reluctant.

They share ten practical ways to shift behaviour without a 50-slide deck. You’ll hear how to start with sharp, leader-focused questions instead of programmes, use commercial numbers to earn attention, set clear people outcomes rather than more process, offer genuine choice, and make change feel tiny and doable through simple nudges. They also explore how to swap “HR as trainer” for peer-to-peer learning, use more human language, and tailor your message to different decision-making styles – from fast-moving Drivers to cautious “steady hands”.

Finally, Lucy and Karen show how to stop pouring energy into the hardest resistors and instead “go with the energy” – working first with early adopters, then using their success to win over results-focused pragmatists.

• 00:03 – Setting the scene: Why influencing leaders feels so hard for HR
• 03:31 – Four types of resistance: Defiant, Intellectual, Busy and Reluctant
• 08:48 – Ten practical tips: Questions, data and focusing on outcomes
• 16:35 – Making it easy: Choice, tiny nudges and peer-to-peer learning
• 28:23 – Personas, packaging and next steps: Olivia, Jessica, Michael and a simple plan for your next leader conversation

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