The much-anticipated face-to-face meeting between Prime Minister Albanese and President Trump has happened, not in the Oval Office but the Cabinet Room of the White House. The PM will be very pleased with how it went, with only one major casualty – embarrassment for Australia’s US Ambassador Kevin Rudd, after past tweets critical of the president were brought up, creating some awkwardness.

To discuss the dynamics and outcomes of the meeting Darren welcomes Dr. Charles Edel to the podcast, a long overdue guest, and the best-placed individual anywhere to provide insight into these events, and the broader alliance relationship. Why was the meeting needed? While widely agreed to have gone well, what exactly made the meeting a success? What is the status of AUKUS now, and what about critical minerals? And, while he did not have a good time at the meeting, how has Kevin Rudd been an essential part of the process and key to its success?

Charles is a senior adviser and the inaugural Australia Chair at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He previously taught at the University of Sydney, where he was also a senior fellow at the United States Studies Centre. Prior to that, Charles was a professor of strategy and policy at the U.S. Naval War College and served on the U.S. secretary of state’s Policy Planning Staff.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Charles Edel (bio): https://www.csis.org/people/charles-edel

Abraham Denmark and Charles Edel, “The AUKUS Inflection: Seizing the Opportunity to Deliver Deterrence”, CSIS Australia Chair Report, August 2025: https://www.csis.org/analysis/aukus-inflection-seizing-opportunity-deliver-deterrence

Annabel Crabbe, “When Donald Trump was ready to take his pound of flesh, Kevin Rudd was here to help”, ABC News, 21 October: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-21/trump-albanese-meeting-rudd-pound-of-flesh/105916336

Australian Industry Group, “Developing industry capability and partnerships for AUKUS Pillar 2”, Report, August 2025: https://www.aigroup.com.au/globalassets/news/reports/2025/ai_group_spg_report_aukus_pillar-ii.pdf

Trent Dalton, Gravity let me go, (4th estate, 2025): https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9781460713334/gravity-let-me-go/