This week, Emily and I talked to Anna Rollins about her beautiful memoir, Famished: On Food, Sex, and Growing Up as a Good Girl

Anna grew up in an Evangelical Christian community in Appalachia and was taught from a very young age that gender, sexuality, appetite, and thinness were toxically intertwined. Eating disorders were very much normalized in her community, and girls were taught to fear their desires. It's an incredible book, which both Emily and I tore through. Emily has written before about her history with disordered eating, and listening to both Anna and Emily exchange their personal insights was such a privilege. I got so much from both Anna's book and our conversation, which TRULY covers the gamut of why ideals of womanhood are Very, Very Bad.

Today, Emily and I discuss something we've been discussing since the day we became friends. What does it mean to bring children into the world? What does it mean to want to become a mother? And is that the same things as wanting to raise kids? There are just as many reasons not to have kids are there are reasons to have them, but so often cultural conversations about maternal ambivalence, pronatalism, and the climate crisis coagulate into a sticky abstract. Ultimately, the question of motherhood is intensely personal. So we get into it, and bring our individual baggage along for the ride!

Why Having A Third Baby Felt Like The Safe Choice (by Sara)

Reclaiming Maternal Dread (by Sara)

I Don't Cherish Every Moment (by Sara)

Is Having A Child Worth It? (by Emily)

The Choice of Childlessness (by Emily)

I Need More Time: Weighing The Option of Egg Freezing (by Emily)

I occupy a certain corner of the internet that's been closely following all things Lindy West. My group chats have been ABLAZE. In today's episode, we talk to author Leigh Stein about her viral newsletter post about reading Adult Braces through the lens of gothic literature and domestic abuse. We also (BRAVELY) talk about Adult Braces as a memoir, rather than merely an asterisk to a million think pieces about the death of feminism blah blah blah. This was such a rich conversation, and even if you're burned out on Lindy West discourse (fair!), if you're at all curious about Adult Braces (road trips, personal insecurities, fatness, self-image, embodiment, Shrill the TV show, the connection between the perception of desirability and selfhood) this one's for you.

This week, Emily and I bravely unpack the perennial problem of dinner. We have to think about it, we have to cook it, we have to clean it up, and most of all, we need to eat it otherwise we die. Let's get into it.

ALSO DISCUSSED 🍿🥘🥬

• Stir-fry being THE college girl dinner of our day

• Ina Garten as ultimate comfort watch

• The unlimited joys of popcorn

• Big Kale

• Dawson's Creek and the passing of James Van Der Beek

• Sara's fear of the grocery store

• Emily's fear of sauce

• The un-fun but very real fact of eating disorders impacting the conception of dinner

• PASTA

• TV as bliss

• Emily's breakfast reveal . . . which causes Sara to melt down

This week, Emily and I had the juiciest conversation with Emily Adrian, author of The Seduction Theory, which Emily and I both obsessively read in tandem. It's a delicious novel about the stories we tell ourselves and each other, the nature of infidelity, and how desirable women are both embodied and objectivized.

Other Topics Covered:

• Sara's questionable notion of aspirational womanhood

• The novel concept of married people who are still in love

• The duality of hot moms and sad moms

• The luxury of time when you're an academic without kids

• Physical cheating vs. emotional cheating

• "Can straight men revere their partners?"

• The balance between power and vulnerability

• Is seduction simply another form of challenge?

• Sometimes Sara doesn't want to read about motherhood!

• Are kids insurance against a cheating partner (lol lol lol)?

• Emily's hilarious "good thing" for the week. Tween-approved.

In which Emily and I discuss an article from The Cut about 44 as a milestone age and whether or not our journey over the alleged bridge of 44 has changed us.

ALSO!

• Emily and I sort of disagree about Pluribus but get equally enraged about one particular scene

• Plantar fasciitis

• The disappearance of "mom" clothes

• Tracking our cycles

• Aspirational healthcare

• Not wanting MORE DATA jfc

• Age as the "great equalizer"

• Age as a "problem" to solve

• "Leading with anger"

EEEEE! I'm so beyond excited to share the first episode of Clean Countertops!

Topics covered:

• My past tradwife aspirations

• Emily's past girlboss aspirations

• Behind-the-scenes podcast LEARNING MOMENTS

• Elizabeth Holmes' hair, lipstick, and black turtleneck

• Men wanting to fuck themselves?

• Youth as integral to both tradwife and girlboss branding

• Emily's shocking lack of countertop agita

• Our meet-cute at a writing conference

• Tradwife fatigue

• AYN RAND YIKES STRIPES

• The girls' girl vs. the guys' girl

• Family influence

Thank you all so much for listening, and PLEASE let us know what sort of topics you'd like us to cover in future eps! We're very very very open to your feedback (for example: are transcripts something you'd like in the future?) so please be in touch!

I'm so excited to share a little taste of my podcast, Clean Countertops, the first episode of which comes out NEXT WEEK! Here's a bit about the pod.

Clean Countertops examines the endless examples of ideal womanhood pulsing through every aspect of our culture. Hosted by me (obv) and feminist writer Emily J. Smith, each episode examines a different cultural touchpoint that pushes on expectations of the “ideal” woman. I'm a married mom of 3 in rural NH, and Emily is a child-free, unmarried Brooklynite. We come from very different backgrounds, but we've spent the past decade bonding over the ways our pursuit of particular feminine ideals–and the subsequent dismantling of that pursuit–has shaped the core of our identities. Whether we're talking about tradwives, girl bosses, or pronatalist goddesses, we're always talking about why Good Woman™ ideals are bad.

Join me, Emily, and the occasional guest to untangle, dissect, and most importantly laugh at the inescapable expectations of womanhood today.