Host Dr. Elizabeth Economy interviews Noah Barkin, senior advisor with the Rhodium Group, about the evolving EU-China relationship following their July 2025 summit celebrating 50 years of diplomatic ties. Barkin traces Europe's awakening to the China challenge and China's designation as a "systemic rival" in 2019, explaining how the EU has developed its own distinct approach to managing Chinese economic competition. The conversation explores why China's strategy of leveraging Trump-era U.S.-Europe tensions to drive a wedge between allies has largely failed, with Europe maintaining its critical stance on issues like Chinese overcapacity and support for Russia. Barkin discusses the different approaches among EU member states, the significance of China's rare earth controls, and Wang Yi's surprising admission that Beijing wants to keep the U.S. "distracted" with the Ukraine war. Drawing on his expertise from Berlin, Barkin offers insights into whether Europe can maintain unity on China policy and what tools the EU needs to address the growing economic and security challenges posed by Chinese behavior.

Recorded on July 29, 2025.

ABOUT THE SERIES

China Considered with Elizabeth Economy is a Hoover Institution podcast series that features in-depth conversations with leading political figures, scholars, and activists from around the world. The series explores the ideas, events, and forces shaping China’s future and its global relationships, offering high-level expertise, clear-eyed analysis, and valuable insights to demystify China’s evolving dynamics and what they may mean for ordinary citizens and key decision makers across societies, governments, and the private sector.

Dr. Elizabeth Economy interviews Professor David Shambaugh about his new book Breaking the Engagement: How China Won & Lost America, which examines the collapse of America's four-decade engagement strategy with China. Shambaugh argues that China initially "won over" American constituencies during the reform era, but starting around 2010, these groups faced increasing obstacles in China, leading to the breakdown of the "engagement coalition." The conversation explores the five schools of thought dominating current US-China policy debates and Shambaugh's assertion that the relationship has shifted to "indefinite, comprehensive, competitive rivalry." Drawing on his experience as both a leading China scholar and a former government official who witnessed key moments like normalization in 1979, Shambaugh offers insights into whether this dynamic can be managed to prevent further escalation.

Recorded on July 9, 2025.

ABOUT THE SERIES

China Considered with Elizabeth Economy is a Hoover Institution podcast series that features in-depth conversations with leading political figures, scholars, and activists from around the world. The series explores the ideas, events, and forces shaping China’s future and its global relationships, offering high-level expertise, clear-eyed analysis, and valuable insights to demystify China’s evolving dynamics and what they may mean for ordinary citizens and key decision makers across societies, governments, and the private sector.

Hoover Fellows Dr. Elizabeth Economy and Dr. Amy Zegart discuss the "DeepSeek moment"— when China's DeepSeek AI model surprised U.S. markets by replicating OpenAI's performance using fewer resources and an open-source approach. The two explore the strategic implications of open versus closed AI models, with there being an argument that the U.S. should embrace more open research approaches rather than closed models. They highlight how China is successfully replicating America's historical innovation model—investing heavily in long-term basic science—while the U.S. has reduced federal R&D spending. The two scholars conclude with policy recommendations, including fixing K-12 math education, creating a national computer infrastructure for universities, and strengthening partnerships with allies while emphasizing the importance of including academia in what should be "public-private-academic partnerships."

Recorded on July 2, 2025.

ABOUT THE SPEAKERS

Amy Zegart is the Morris Arnold and Nona Jean Cox Senior Fellow and the Director of the Technology Policy Accelerator (TPA) at the Hoover Institution. She is also a Professor of Political Science (by courtesy) at Stanford University, and a Senior Fellow at Stanford's Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence Institute and the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies. The author of five books, she specializes in U.S. intelligence, emerging technologies and national security, grand strategy, and global political risk management.

Zegart's award-winning research includes the leading academic study of intelligence failures before 9/11: Spying Blind: The CIA, the FBI, and the Origins of 9/11. Her most recent book is the bestseller Spies, Lies, and Algorithms: The History and Future of American Intelligence (Princeton, 2022), which was nominated by Princeton University Press for the Pulitzer Prize. Her op-eds and essays have appeared in Foreign Affairs, Politico, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal.

Elizabeth Economy is the Hargrove Senior Fellow and co-director of the Program on the US, China, and the World at the Hoover Institution. From 2021-2023, she took leave from Hoover to serve as the senior advisor for China to the US Secretary of Commerce. Before joining Hoover, she was the C.V. Starr Senior Fellow and director, Asia Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. She is the author of four books on China, including most recently The World According to China (Polity, 2021), and the co-editor of two volumes. She serves on the boards of the National Endowment for Democracy and the National Committee on US-China Relations. She is a member of the Aspen Strategy Group and Council on Foreign Relations and serves as a book reviewer for Foreign Affairs.

ABOUT THE SERIES

China Considered with Elizabeth Economy is a Hoover Institution podcast series that features in-depth conversations with leading political figures, scholars, and activists from around the world. The series explores the ideas, events, and forces shaping China’s future and its global relationships, offering high-level expertise, clear-eyed analysis, and valuable insights to demystify China’s evolving dynamics and what they may mean for ordinary citizens and key decision makers across societies, governments, and the private sector.