In this episode, Anna is joined once again by Dr. Sarah Powell, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin whose research focusses on supporting students with math difficulties. They respond to a recent NCSM statement criticizing the Science of Math movement.

Anna and Sarah unpack what the Science of Math is and why high-quality evidence matters. They address misconceptions about explicit instruction and “one-size-fits-all” teaching and explore why math instruction deserves the same scientific scrutiny as reading instruction. This episode is a must-listen for educators, school leaders, policymakers, and parents navigating the current math education landscape.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction and an overview of the NCSM statement [00:10:25] What is the Science of Math? [00:12:07] Is this only about special education? [00:14:24] Math learning through the general lens of learning science [00:17:19] Is the Science of Math equivalent to the Science of Reading? [00:20:01] The instructional hierarchy applies to learning anything [00:24:07] The same groups tried to discredit What Works Clearinghouse [00:26:30] Responding to claims about research citations [00:29:49] Addressing the NCSM’s claims about quantitative research [00:31:21] Why quantitative research and data matter [00:38:24] Why alignment with IES and What Works Clearinghouse is a strength, not a flaw [00:40:18] Importance of measuring learning [00:42:59] Strange statements about an impoverished pedagogical approach [00:47:30] Misconceptions about explicit instruction [00:51:25] Is there quantitative data that supports mixed approaches or inquiry? [00:55:20] Does explicit instruction fundamentally minimize learners' autonomy? [00:56:32] Final Claim: The one-size-fits-all teaching method [00:58:04] Problems with the phrase “math wars” [00:59:59] Why is there such strong resistance to The Science of Math? [01:02:51] Final Thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Reading and math: Parallels and pitfalls with Matt Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6

Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c

Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d

Supporting students with math difficulties with Sarah Powell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-ciqgm-17def6b

The power of explicit instruction with Anita Archer https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-93dcw-19a3530

Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks, & more with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-stw9g-186807f

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-65-transcript

EPISODE RESOURCES

https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-65-resources

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

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In this episode, Anna is joined by Tom Sherrington, education consultant, author of Rosenshine’s Principles in Action, co-author of the Teaching Walkthrough series, and a former teacher and school leader with over 30 years of experience. Tom shares how Rosenshine’s Principles of Instruction became a foundational framework for his own practice and why they remain one of the most useful entry points into evidence-based teaching.

They explore where the principles came from, why they matter, and what they actually look like in real classrooms, with a focus on sequencing and modelling, effective questioning, review, and structured practice. This practical, research-informed conversation offers clear, concrete guidance for educators at all levels who want to align their teaching with how learning works.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

PRINCIPLES OF INSTRUCTION RESOURCE

Principles of Instruction: Research-based Strategies That All Teachers Should Know by Barak Rosenshine: https://www.aft.org/sites/default/files/Rosenshine.pdf

TOM SHERRINGTON WEBSITE https://teacherhead.com/

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction and listing the 10 principles [00:04:19] Who was Barak Rosenshine? [00:04:45] From 17 evidence-based instructional procedures to 10 principles [00:08:18] What research backs Rosenshine’s principles? [00:14:54] UK teachers’ familiarity with Rosehnshine’s principles [00:14:08] Pace of adopting Rosenshine’s principles in other countries [00:18:07] The more practice the better: Rosenshine’s on practice [00:23:06] What does aiming for an 80% success rate mean? [00:27:09] Importance of checking for understanding [00:28:39] Checking for understanding and good questioning [00:32:55] Understanding the forms of guided practice [00:34:33] Teaching between desks [00:38:54] Principle 1 & 10 – The reviewing stages [00:43:51] When to review before teaching your lesson [00:45:11] Presenting new materials and small practice steps [00:49:47] Principle 4 – Providing models [00:51:34] Principle 8 – Provide scaffolds for difficult tasks [00:54:59] Do these principles apply to any subject? [00:57:40] Can we get 80% success in classrooms with a wide range of learning levels?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES The power of explicit instruction with Anita Archer https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-93dcw-19a3530

Educational leadership: Improving math and literacy with Scott Hill https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vpzf8-16d0c17 Reclaiming leaning time to boost literacy and numeracy with Ross Fox https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bpy4n-188c9c5

Exploring evidence for equitable education with Nidhi Sacheva and Jim Hewitt

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-fjdnt-1685615

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-64-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Craig Barton, former secondary maths teacher, host of the Mr. Barton Maths Podcast, author of How I Wish I’d Taught Maths, and a new Tips for Teachers book series. Craig reflects on how his teaching evolved after engaging deeply with learning science and educational research.

Together, they explore what effective explicit instruction looks like in math from atomisation and worked examples to checking for understanding, purposeful practice, and problem solving across the I do, we do, you do phases. This practical, research-informed episode is essential for educators looking to improve math outcomes by aligning instruction with how learning works.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

CRAIG BARTON'S BOOKS & WEBSITE

Order How I Wish I’d Taught Maths here: https://shorturl.at/rGTin

Craig Barton’s Tips for Teachers books & websites: https://mrbartonmaths.com/

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:05:09] What changed Craig’s mind about how to teach math [00:09:07] When struggle isn’t productive [00:12:29] Essential components of a well-structured, explicit instruction lesson [00:14:54] An introduction to atomisation [00:16:16] Purposeful practice [00:21:08] More on atomisation [00:23:58] Examples of atomisation [00:27:03] Summary of atomisation [00:27:49] How to deal with wide skill ranges in the math classroom [00:31:36] Engelman & Carnine’s Theory of Instruction [00:32:30] Tips for the ‘I do’ stage [00:38:24] Importance of checking for listening [00:44:17] Tips for the ‘We do’ stage [00:45:51] A ‘we do’ fraction example [00:49:23] Atomisation helps with struggle [00:52:24] Tips for the ‘You do’ stage [00:54:13] How to use purposeful practice [00:55:24] How to set students up to solve non-routine problems [01:03:56] How to effectively teach problem solving [01:09:05] The importance of structure [01:09:53] Can explicit instruction in math be interactive? [01:12:01] Where to find Craig [01:13:08] Final thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56

Raising student achievement with Dylan Wiliam https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-kduiw-15bba36

Project Follow Through: Direct Instruction’s overlooked success with Marcy Stein https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-a9fqx-17a2ffb

Using the Instructional Hierarchy to teach math with Brendan Lee https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3zux7-193d0fc

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-63-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social