A CMO Confidential Interview with Kate Bullis and David Wiser, Managing Partners and Global Marketing Practice Leaders for ZRG Partners. Kate and David translate their extensive search experience to classify common mistakes into "movie themes" and share tips on how to recognize if you are directing or reading for a part in a disaster film. From "Play It Again, Sam," to "No, No, It's Really A CMO Role!" to "Death by Committee!" they describe the all-too-familiar plotlines and how to tear apart the hype from the facts. Hints: Look at the dashboard, listen to the questions and beware of the "Hands on the keyboard" role. Tune in to hear why companies should focus on outcomes versus qualifications and why you should always check your Zoom background.

What are the five bad “movies” CEOs and boards keep remaking when they hire CMOs—and how do you avoid starring in one? Mike Linton sits down with ZRG Partners’ Kate Bullis and David Wiser to unpack 2025’s CMO market, why early-stage hiring should rebound, and how capital and IPO activity reset expectations from “profit at all costs” back to growth. They break down the most common failure modes—chasing a playbook, hiring an “orchestra,” titling a demand-gen job as “CMO,” forcing marketing to “stay in its lane,” and letting committees kill momentum—and the exact questions candidates and CEOs should ask to surface scope, KPIs, authority, and alignment.

You’ll hear red flags like “hands-on keyboard,” why the KPI dashboard effectively *is* the job description, and how cross-functional interviews reveal whether a CMO will be a strategist or an order taker. David and Kate close with urgency discipline for searches and a three-year business-back plan for defining the role.

CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, ZRG Partners, Kate Bullis, David Wiser, CMO hiring, marketing leadership, executive search, CEO, board of directors, hiring mistakes, KPI dashboard, hands-on-keyboard, demand generation, brand vs performance, org design, stay in your lane, death by committee, playbook vs framework, 2025 job market, private equity, IPOs, marketing strategy, B2B marketing, growth vs profitability

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Chapters

00:00 – Welcome & show setup

01:08 – Meet Kate Bullis & David Wiser (ZRG Partners)

01:32 – 2025 CMO job market outlook

02:56 – Where hiring rebounds first (startups vs. public)

04:24 – From profitability snapback to growth focus

05:35 – Theme 1: “Play it again, Sam” (playbook thinking)

06:48 – Frameworks over playbooks: why “fetch” fails

08:16 – KPIs as the real scope: the dashboard test

10:08 – Theme 2: “I want the orchestra” (do-it-all CMO)

12:44 – Red flag: “hands-on keyboard” and checkbox hiring

14:19 – Theme 3: “No, really, it’s a CMO role” (but it’s demand gen)

15:31 – B2B trap: title inflation and scope mismatch

18:25 – Measure what matters: aligning title, work, and KPIs

19:00 – Theme 4: “Stay in your lane” (the Yes Center)

20:20 – Sales/product-driven constraints and influence

22:00 – Theme 5: “Death by committee” (misalignment & vetoes)

23:18 – Fixing alignment: who decides and how

25:26 – Why bad movies still get made: urgency and drift

27:54 – The other mistake: lack of urgency in searches

28:43 – Funniest recruiting moments (Zoom era)

30:21 – Practical advice: define the next 3 years, then the role

31:29 – Wrap and where to listen

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Tom Stein, the Chairman and founder of Stein and Jann Schwarz, Senior Director of Marketplace Innovation at LinkedIn and founder of Think tank, The B2B Institute, who join us to discuss the 2025 Brand-to- Demand Maturity and the B2B Buyability studies. Tom and Jann share results showing the need to integrate brand and performance marketing in an era when the marketing funnel has collapsed needs fundamental re-thinking and Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs) are still a key measure (in spite of data showing they've lost their usefulness). Tom and Jann explain why nearly all survey respondents acknowledge a problem but only 20% are taking action. Key topics include: why a good product or service are now "table stakes”; how buyer confidence, human connection and customer experience have become key Buyability differentiators; and the belief that B2B creative is way behind B2C on average. Tune in to hear why “demand-focused marketing" was one of the greatest brand misdirects of all time and a fabulous story of an alter boy accidentally dropping the Baby Jesus.

The Truth Behind the Curtain in B2B: Brand + Demand, MQLs, and “Buyability” with Tom Stein & Jan Schwartz

Description:

Mike Linton sits down with Tom Stein (Stein) and Jan Schwartz (LinkedIn’s B2B Institute) to unpack new ANA research on brand–demand maturity and a bold operating model they call “buyability.” They cover why 80% of marketers say integration matters but aren’t doing it, why MQLs are failing modern buying groups, how to financialize creative and brand, and what CEOs/boards should actually measure to accelerate revenue.

Chapters:

00:00 Intro & guest setup

02:36 Why a brand–demand maturity study now

05:36 The 80% integration gap

07:17 Org design: why teams move slowly

09:36 MQLs under fire (and better alternatives)

10:45 Creative quality in B2B: reality check

13:34 ServiceNow, Idris Elba, and distinctive assets

15:01 The CEO/CFO/Board disconnect

19:00 “Buyability” explained: becoming easier to buy

22:12 Brand as a full-funnel commercial driver

23:40 The funnel is broken; AI ups the stakes

26:59 Playing offense: fewer, better buyer-group leads

28:20 Financializing the case for change

29:56 The budget stat that shocked everyone

31:41 What to do now: category fame, trust, real metrics

34:41 Funniest stories and practical parting advice

37:35 Wrap & where to find more episodes

Tags:

B2B marketing,brand and demand,buyability,MQL,pipeline velocity,CMO Confidential,Mike Linton,Tom Stein,Jan Schwartz,LinkedIn B2B Institute,ANA,B2B brand,B2B demand gen,marketing measurement,go to market,Salesforce,ServiceNow,Idris Elba,B2B creative,category fame,board metrics,CFO,CEO,CRO,sales alignment,MarTech,lead gen,buyer groups,brand strategy,revenue growth

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A CMO Confidential Interview with Dr. Joel Shapiro, Managerial Economics & Decision Sciences Professor at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, formerly Varicent Chief Analytics Officer. Joel discusses his NFL study including why some teams handle injury better then others, the idea of finding variables which can't be seen by the naked eye, and his conclusion that resilience has a lot to do with planning, resource deployment and the foresight to think about potential problems. Key topics include: the importance of back-ups; the ability to find business problems that can be solved with data; and how to use data and AI to predict "bad stuff." Tune in to hear about the "percent cash wasted measure," and how Joel's class beat Las Vegas on predicting last year's NHL playoff teams.

**What NFL Injury Data Teaches Business About Resilience — with Joel Shapiro (Kellogg)**

Northwestern Kellogg’s Joel Shapiro returns to CMO Confidential to unpack a surprising finding: predicting player injury isn’t a “failed use case” — and the lessons translate directly to how leaders design resilient organizations. We cover the data model behind injury prediction, Joel’s “percent cash wasted” metric, the real effect of injuries on winning (including offense vs. defense), why backups matter, and how to build purposeful resilience across sales, supply chain, and leadership. Plus: a student project that beat Vegas and a fearless (and funny) Super Bowl take.

Chapters

00:00 Intro — Why this episode matters for executives

01:10 Joel’s remit: turning data & AI into business outcomes

03:19 Injury prediction isn’t a failed use case

05:45 Why the NFL: clean injury data and an 11-year dataset

07:32 What the model outputs: games likely to be missed

08:51 “Percent Cash Wasted”: paying for injured players

10:15 Do injuries really impact winning? The curve is flatter than you think

12:19 Offense vs. defense: wasted cash effects aren’t equal

13:47 Healthy one year, injured the next: who stays good?

14:36 The lever that breaks teams: losing a highly paid QB

15:25 Purposeful resilience vs. “toughing it out”

16:34 Backups matter — translating roster depth to business

18:29 If you can’t prevent every injury, recruit for availability

19:17 Business translation: resilience in sales, supply chain, and leadership

21:42 Treat resilience as strategy, not back-office insurance

24:22 Which companies are structurally resilient (and why scale helps)

24:49 Joel’s bold pick: the Bears’ weird start and a playful prediction

25:36 Data, betting, and integrity — what changes as information improves

27:25 Students vs. Vegas: NHL playoff models that won

28:20 How much data it really takes (rows, columns, and what matters)

29:54 Wrap and where to find more CMO Confidential

Tags

CMO Confidential, Mike Linton, Joel Shapiro, Northwestern Kellogg, data science, AI, predictive analytics, NFL injuries, sports analytics, resilience, business resilience, risk management, leadership, percent cash wasted, roster construction, backups, quarterback, offense vs defense, supply chain, sales teams, machine learning, predictive modeling, DraftKings, FanDuel, NHL, Kansas City Chiefs, Chicago Bears, C-suite, marketing leadership, podcast, YouTube chapters

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