In this episode of Business Lunch, Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss explain how the classic four-stage buying journey has collapsed into one moment—and why trust is the lid that keeps prospects “popping” in your pot. They unpack three forms of trust—Identity, Competence, and Proximity—with sharp wins and public flops (Nike, Sephora, Peloton, DSW, Starbucks, Apple, United). You’ll get simple creative frameworks to turn short-form content into instant, in-channel conversions and a 14-day sprint to prove it on a small budget.

• “It’s not a funnel anymore—it’s a popcorn popper. Your audience are kernels heating at different speeds. Trust is the lid that keeps them popping for you.”
• “Competence trust means the brand ‘gets me’—often better than I can describe myself.”
• “Employees outperform celebrities for reach and credibility—because most buyers are employees.”
• “Frictionless is forgettable. Add desirable friction that helps buyers name their pain and act.”
• “If you can’t pivot your model, bolt trust into your media: mirror-micro-media, why-what-where, people-place-proof.”

Three Trust Types (MAP mnemonic):

• M – Identity trust: Mirror → Micro → Media
• A – Competence trust: “Answer” with Why → What → Where
• P – Proximity trust: People → Place → Proof

Competence wins & misses: Nike’s “Why do it?” repositioning; Sephora tutorials lifting AOV; Peloton’s 2019 holiday ad backlash.

Proximity plays: DSW AR try-ons; Starbucks barista TikToks; Apple retail specialists; cautionary tale—United Airlines viral incidents.

Localization tactics: regional currency/sites, geo-specific visuals (city skylines), and micro-influencers by market.

KPI effects: higher AOV/retention/loyalty from competence; higher LTV from proximity; employee posts driving outsized reach.

• 00:00 – The collapsed customer journey: from funnel to popcorn popper (trust as the lid)
• 04:00 – Recap: Identity trust (mirror, micro, media)—and why episodes stand alone but compound
• 07:30 – Competence trust: the brand that “gets me” (Nike shift, Sephora demos) + Peloton misread
• 14:20 – Framework for competence: Why → What → Where (myth-bust, demo, direct CTA)
• 17:30 – Example: 30-sec tax advisory myth-buster → LinkedIn/Reels → consult link → track AOV
• 20:10 – Proximity trust: employees, in-place context, show real proof (DSW AR, Starbucks, Apple)
• 24:10 – Employee content > celebrity polish; make it authentic, even shot on phone
• 26:00 – 14-day Trust Sprint and MAP recap; why proximity is overlooked yet most scalable

• Stop chasing linear funnels; engineer trust in-channel so action can happen immediately.
• Use Why → What → Where to collapse steps: name the pain, show the fix, drop the link.
• Turn staff into a media network: People → Place → Proof with incentives and simple tracking.
• Localize by currency, domains, visuals, accents, micro-influencers—it quietly multiplies conversion.
• Run a 14-day sprint: baseline CAC/AOV → recruit 3 customers + 3 insiders → record shorts →...

In this episode of the Business Lunch podcast, Host Roland Frasier and guest Richard Lindner break down the subscription trap and why recurring revenue isn’t always the ultimate solution it’s made out to be.

From the outside, subscription models look like a dream: predictable cash flow, higher valuations, and a business that doesn’t start at zero each month. But as Roland and Richard reveal, the reality can be far more complicated.

They dive into real stories from their portfolio companies, showing how recurring revenue can backfire through hidden churn, customer support debt, and endless innovation demands. You’ll hear how even big players like Netflix constantly battle to keep customers engaged, and why smaller businesses often underestimate the true cost of service.

This episode is a must-listen if you’re considering shifting to a subscription model—or if you’ve already launched one and want to make sure it’s sustainable.

HIGHLIGHTS

“Recurring revenue is great… until you’re losing more members each month than you know how to gain.”

“There’s voluntary churn, where people cancel. But the killer is involuntary churn—declined payments, expired cards—that can quietly eat your business alive.”

“If you’re creating content subscriptions, pair them with community. Access is the real value that keeps people sticking around.”

“Don’t fall in love with the model. Define your business by who you serve, not just how you charge.”

Mentioned in this Episode

The difference between breakage vs. consumption models (think Netflix vs. gym memberships)

Why AI in customer support is changing the economics of subscription businesses

How to tell if your business should pursue a bolt-on subscription or avoid it altogether

🎧 Whether you’re launching your first subscription offer or scaling an existing one, this episode will help you see beyond the hype and make smarter decisions for long-term growth.

Timestamps:

00:00 – Intro & The Subscription Trap

02:10 – Should Every Business Go Subscription?

04:58 – Understanding Churn & Retention

07:52 – The Innovation Challenge

10:23 – Cost of Service & Support Debt

13:35 – Smarter Models: Community + Content

19:31 – Key Questions Before You Launch

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rolandfrasier/

📱 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RolandFrasierPage/

💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rolandfrasier/

Subscribe to Roland Frasier 👉 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkHnnFgdaTCg8KBd7W_LGSw?sub_confirmation=1

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was built for you.

This is not your typical business event. It’s 3 days of hands-on strategy, real-world frameworks, and next-level networking with the smartest operators in the game.

🗓 November 18–20, 2025

📍 San Diego, CA

🎉 Hosted by Ryan Deiss, Roland Frasier, and Richard Lindner

🎧 As a Business Lunch listener, you get 25% off your ticket.

Use code LUNCH at checkout.

Get Scalable Live

Mentioned in this episode:

Join Roland & Ryan at Get Scalable Live

If you’re a founder, CEO, or operator running a 7- or 8-figure business, Get Scalable Live was built for you. This is not your typical business event....

Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss break down the “loyalty illusion”—why points and perks often backfire, how spreadsheet thinking killed customer love, and a practical framework to audit or rebuild a program that actually increases retention, spend, and referrals.

• Why “loyalty penalties” drive your best customers away
• The airline/credit-card miles economics—and how devaluation erodes $25B in perceived value
• The 5-Question Loyalty Audit (value, simplicity, frequency of wins, emotion vs. switching cost, financial sanity)
• What great looks like: status, access, and convenience (not discounts)
• A 7-step roadmap to design (or reset) your program

• 00:00 Cold open: founders’ meeting recap, wine cellar banter
• 02:05 The hook: the “loyalty illusion” and why consumers feel trapped
• 05:20 Consumer POV: when complexity makes customers give up
• 08:10 Finance-driven devaluation: how “pencil-whipping” kills goodwill
• 09:45 Airlines > miles > credit cards: the $25B machine and breakage
• 12:40 From distance flown to dollars spent: fallout and backlash
• 15:05 “Loyalty penalty”: new-customer offers vs. existing customers
• 16:50 The 5-Question Loyalty Audit (red flags & benchmarks)
• 19:30 Simplicity wins: JetBlue/Southwest lessons (and where they slipped)
• 22:15 Frequency of wins: Starbucks habit loop vs. margin compression
• 25:20 Luxury model: status & access (Hermès, Four Seasons, 100 Acre)
• 28:40 Access > discounts: Wynn Private Access, line-skip convenience
• 31:10 Choosing your currency: points, status, experiences (Sephora case)
• 34:35 Setting earn ratios: 2–5% cost with outsized perceived value
• 37:10 Tiering for aspiration: Prime renewals, why Amazon is an outlier
• 39:20 7-Step Roadmap: objective → currency → earn ratio → tiers → early wins → daily integration → quarterly audits
• 43:30 Operator action items; consumer playbook (negotiate, switch, diversify)
• 46:10 Ultimate test: does your program create love—or hostages?
• 47:40 Closing thoughts & invitations to share experiences

• Discounts train delay; access creates desire.
• If <30% of points are redeemed, your program likely isn’t driving behavior.
• Measure outcomes (retention, AOV, referrals) as symptoms of real loyalty—not substitutes for it.
• Make it explainable in 60 seconds.

CONNECT

• Ask Roland a question HERE.

RESOURCES:

• 7 Steps to Scalable workbook

• Get my book, Zero Down, FREE

To learn more about Roland Frasier 👉 https://msha.ke/rolandfrasier/

Connect with me on social:

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rolandfrasier

📸 Instagram: