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A lot of people feel the cultural ground shifting and want a faster fix. We explore a different path with Dr. Hunter Baker—one rooted in Baptist history, biblical ecclesiology, and a hard-won vision of religious liberty that helped shape the American constitutional order. We talk candidly about why Christian nationalism is attracting younger men, how state-church fusion looks powerful but weakens doctrine over time, and why a free church holds its nerve best when public pressure rises.

We trace the Baptist distinctives that matter here: believers’ baptism, congregational governance, and the conviction that coerced faith isn’t faith. That theological core leads to a civic stance—keep church and state institutionally separate so the church can preach, disciple, and, when necessary, correct the state. Along the way, we revisit what “liberalism” originally meant: liberty under law, free speech, free press, and limited government—an ecosystem where the gospel can persuade rather than be policed. We contrast Europe’s state-church legacy with America’s free-church vitality, and we wrestle with Obergefell-era conscience conflicts, where the question isn’t who wins a headline but whether the state will force Christians to commit impious acts.

Patriotism gets its due, too. Gratitude for a nation that helped defeat totalitarianism is right and good; worship of the nation is not. We draw practical lines between civic love and idolatry, clarify the two domains—sword of steel for the state, sword of the Spirit for the church—and offer a sane, principled definition of Christian nationalism so the term isn’t a catchall insult. By the end, you’ll have a clearer framework for faithful citizenship, resilient churches, and a public witness that refuses both coercion and retreat.

If this conversation helps you think more clearly about church, state, and conscience, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a five-star review to help others find us.

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