⚡️ High-Converting Websites Visual Swipe File: https://www.mmg.studio/visualswipefile

In this episode, I sit down with Clay Ostrom, founder of Map & Fire, to talk about why customer research has become the backbone of every smart brand decision. Clay walks through how his agency evolved from brand strategy into research-first work, why AI can speed things up but can't replace a real conversation with a buyer, and how one research project completely flipped a medical client's positioning. We also get into the creative founder's tension between craft and margin, and how Clay went from hating sales to genuinely enjoying it.

CONNECT WITH CLAY
🌐 https://mapandfire.com/
🛠 https://smokeladder.com/
💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/clayostrom/

CONNECT WITH ANDY
🌐 https://mmg.studio/
💼 https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmgdesign/
📸 https://www.instagram.com/mindfulmilligan/

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Intro
00:18 Can your parents explain what you do?
04:00 From computer science to brand strategy
07:00 Why entrepreneurs become unemployable
10:00 A day inside a research-first agency
14:30 Hands-on vs. hands-off founder tension
18:30 Protecting your best thinking hours
25:00 How research took over Map & Fire
29:30 The case study that flipped a brand
35:00 Clay's 180 on sales
42:30 Detaching from any single deal

TEAM
🎙 Host // Andy Milligan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mmgdesign/
🎥 Production // MMG Design: https://mmg.studio/
🤝 Powered by // American Marketing Association Columbus: https://amacolumbus.org/
☕ Supported by // COhatch (2 free weeks of premium coworking): https://www.cohatch.com/mbd