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Emma Rusher: This Audible conversation is with Ben Crowe, often referred to as the Ted Lasso of Australia for his work as a mindset coach to top performers, including Andre Agassi, Ash Barty, and Molly Picklum, as well as NBA teams and the Australian cricket team. But what makes Ben truly distinctive isn't who he's coached, it's how he thinks. Ben, welcome to Audible. We are so pleased to have you here today.
Ben Crowe: Thank you, Emma.
ER: And very keen to get right in and talk about your first book, Where the Light Gets In.
BC: My first and only book, Emma.
ER: Oh, really?
BC: I'm a one book wonder.
ER: That's what they all say.
BC: Exactly.
ER: We'll see. You've got a lot of wisdoms and you've distilled decades of work with top performers. Just really keen to understand your nine perspective shifts that you talk about in the book. And what does that mean when you have a perspective shift?
BC: Yeah, so perspective means the way you see something or your attitude towards something. So, if you can shift your perspective—if your initial mindset isn't helping—into a perspective shift that is helping, that can be quite profound for people. It can be life-changing for people. In some cases, it can save your life. I don't think we realise how powerful perspective is, and realise we've got more agency than we realised to shift our perspective.
I think Archimedes, the legendary Greek mathematician, coined the phrase, "Eureka," which means, "I found it." And when someone has that "aha moment," and they realise, "Oh, my God, I realise where I'm getting distracted in my life," and have that perspective shift—and there's so many. We don't know which perspective shifts we need along our hero’s journey when we're stuck in our dark forest. So, I was really keen to codify the nine of them, but they're not in sequential order. You'll get distracted for different reasons, because we're all very different. But knowing we've armed with the knowledge of these perspective shifts can help us hopefully navigate our hero's journey with a bit more clarity and a bit more enjoyment.
ER: You said that there's one word that you would love to ban. Can you tell us what that is and why?
BC: Yeah, it's in chapter 1 of the book, which is “expectations.” If a teenager picks up my book and doesn't read, I was thinking, “Which perspective shifts could potentially change their life or save their life?” And there's two expectations in particular that we so desperately need to reframe. One is expectations of others, believing we have to live up to someone else's expectations of us, think we have to please someone else or prove ourselves or be validated by someone else, which is not our role in life. It's certainly not teenagers' role in life. And it's now the number-one deathbed regret, which is I wish I had the courage to be me and live a life true to me, rather than the expectations of others, which creates that emotional pressure, which I feel is just sabotaging the world today.
"It's not anyone's role in life to live up to someone else's expectations."
The second one is expectations of outcome, where we obsess the future, the results. “What happens if I don't get this promotion or get this A,” which creates that outcome pressure because we can't control the future. So, reframing expectations back into something we can control 100 percent, which are the expectations I have of myself. What kind of human does Ben Crowe want to be? What are my goals and what my values are. We can become more self-determined that way, because only you determine what your taste buds like, right? Or what songs you love or what gives you a belly laugh or makes you cry. But I think today we are so distracted by believing we have to live up to other people's expectations, which is just creating such a huge mental health challenge for us.
ER: That leads me on to an observation I made listening to you in the book. Many Audible listeners will know Mel Robbins’ work, “let them.” And that powerful moment when you stop caring about other people's expectations and reactions and pressures, and then it lets you move into the “let me” space, which I really feel your book speaks to that. It's that moment where you think about, “Well, what's important to me and how do I define success?” How did you decide to break that down into those nine perspective shifts?
BC: Well, as you know, having read the book, while every perspective shift has a problem to solve and a mindset to shift, they all have a common thread throughout all of them, which is learning to accept the things we can't control, and focus the precious time we have left on the things we can control. And Mel's book, [The Let Them Theory], is very much that juxtaposition between agency and acceptance, right? Learning to accept the things we can't control—in her case, the opinions of others, or “Why wasn't I invited to that dinner party?” and so forth, which is not my life task to control those things. But what can I control, which gets us more self-determined? I think that's really, really important, is when we start to get back to, “Well, what are the things I can control? I can control my goals, my values, my dreams, what I want for me.”
We learn to develop these mantras. One is, “I don't care what anyone thinks about me. It's what I think about myself that matters. It's what I say to myself that matters because I can control that.” The second mantra that a lot of our clients use is, "I can't control what you think about me, but I care about you." And you can flip the switch that way, because we're hardwired for connection to others. So, we've still got to connect with other people. We're not on this world to be on an island, right? When I can say, "I don’t care what you think about me, but I care about you," it unlocks empathy and compassion, but I've got all the power in this relationship. I'm totally empowered. But if I can't say that, if I suddenly care what you think about me or say about me, I'll try and fit in to what I think Emma wants of me rather than stay authentic to myself, and then I'll lose the only competitive advantage I have on this planet, which is my authenticity, because there's only one me.
So, very similar in terms of, I guess, The Let Them Theory around creating boundaries about, what is my role in life and the things I can control, and what isn't my role in life and what things I can't control. As I mentioned earlier, it's not anyone's role in life to live up to someone else's expectations. So, if we can create a boundary around that, and become more self-determined rather than socially determined, and to say, "Look, I don't need to fit into anyone else. I already belong. I'm worthy no matter what, just as I am. I'm not done yet. I've still got all these goals and dreams I want to chase down, but I don't need to live up to someone else's ideal, or someone else's perspective of what they think success is for me." We start to redefine success for ourselves.
ER: That resonates so much, I think, with teenagers. You talk a lot about the work that you do with teenagers and that those feelings, particularly of that age, where you're not enough. You also share some of the elite athletes you've worked with, they've really struggled with that, "I'm not enough." And it's kind of forged them in a way to be ambitious and keep achieving, but ultimately it seems like it's a diminishing and a self-defeating approach when the pressure's really on.So, I'd love you to flesh out a little bit about, if we're not coming from a place of self-worth, if you're thinking you're not enough and it's motivating you to succeed, how do you be kind to yourself and still have those big, ambitious ideas and goals and achievements?
BC: Yeah, beautiful question. It's challenging the old-school mentality of using fear as a motivator to that insecure overachieving, which can work in the short term. It might enable you to outperform, but it's not sustainable as a human being, because you're constantly feeling you have to do something or achieve something for your self-worth. So, you never feel enough. It's always conditional because ultimately we're chasing love. That's what’s worthy of love, right? But if I win another medal or another gold medal, I'll still feel I'm not enough. You still have that constant element of scarcity. So, we like to believe that you can have both. You can be successful as a human being and successful as a human doing. And typically there's two core beliefs that we need to reframe.
"We can control our relationship with the future and our relationship with uncertainty, purely by believing in our potential, in trusting we'll figure it out."
The first belief is that I'm worthy of love no matter what, just as I am. Because then I can trust that whether I win or lose, today or in life, it's all good because I'm worthy no matter what. That's just called love. The second belief is to believe in our potential, and trust that we keep chipping away, we keep working away at it, things will work out, things will take care of themselves. That's called courage. With love and courage, we have attachment, we're worthy of love and authenticity, the courage to be ourselves.
Indigenous tribes called this “roots and wings.” Foundational roots, that I'm worthy of love, right? And then the courage to go out and spread my wings and see how far I can fly. That second belief in particular, you think about it, if you believe you're worthy, so you don't have to do anything, but you've still got these goals and dreams—if you then believe in your potential and trust you'll figure it out, that fundamentally changes your relationship with uncertainty and with the future. We can't control the future. We're not that good, but we can control our relationship with the future and our relationship with uncertainty, purely by believing in our potential, in trusting we'll figure it out.
Most athletes come to me for confidence in their skills, but what they realise what they're lacking is belief in themselves. Here's an interesting one. If confidence and belief had a punch-up in the street, they had a fisticuff in the street, I often ask my clients, who do you think will win? And so often they say confidence. I'm like, “Uh-uh. Belief kicks confidence’s butt in a street fight, because confidence is evidence-based. Confidence goes, ‘Have I been here before?’ Belief goes, ‘I haven't been here before, but I believe in my potential and I'll trust that I'll figure it out.’" So, we can identify the beliefs, but you can be worthy of love and still follow your goals and dreams.
In the book, I think there's a lot of examples of athletes who are able to reframe because that old insecurity, that fear base, just creates so much pressure for most, because we're human beings, we're emotional beings, right? We want to believe that we're worthy no matter what, but so often we tell ourselves we're not good enough or loved enough or smart enough. It's the same whether you're a teenager or whether you're a CEO or you're an athlete, we all have those same core beliefs. And if we've got them, if a parent can teach their kids just those two core beliefs, in my opinion, on so many levels, that's success.
ER: Such a powerful shift in the book. And what is so incredible, which you've achieved—testament to you—is that a lot of your clients have let you share their stories and their vulnerabilities on that journey, which is so powerful.
BC: Yeah, I guess when they see themselves not just as an athlete, but as human beings. We learn through storytelling, and so hearing other people's stories, both the trials and tribulations and the adversities and the setbacks, but also how they overcame them. So, a lot of my clients feel like they have a responsibility to share their stories, or I can be a vessel for some of those stories as well.
ER: So much richness in this book. You've talked about the importance of owning your story. In fact, it's on your T-shirt today, I've noticed. For those who can't see, who are listening, he's got a fabulous black T-shirt on that says, "Own your story." In the audiobook, for somebody who's never really told their own story before, can you share a little bit about what that might sound like and why it's important?
BC: Yeah, there's different ways into owning your story and making sense of it and realising that our life story is not our life, it's just the story, and we're the author of it. While you can't rewrite history, you can alter your interpretation of it and find the good. It's really about a process of just finding memories along the way that help us make sense of who we are and celebrate who we are.
There's so many different ways in. An easy way would just be, ask someone, "Give me one of your early play memories." It's an early play memory, and it might've been on a family holiday, or climbing a tree on your grandparents' farm, or playing with kids in the street. And I often ask them, "Okay, what words best describe how you were feeling in that memory?" And they often say words like playful, free, carefree, or excited, adventurous, warm, safe, belonged, love.
I ask them to find another playful memory, and then another playful memory, and they start to reconnect with the things that they love and the little hobbies and the things that make them smile and so forth. That's a really simple way to start the journey of trying to connect with who you are and what lights you up, what makes you cry, things that you stand up for, things that you believe in, or you don't believe in. That's a really fun, playful way. Rather than looking at your identity, like if I said to you, “How would you introduce yourself if you can't use your job, occupation, your family, or your place of origin?” It makes you go a little deeper and find the stories behind the stories. I think that's the gold.
In the book, and I think it's chapter 4, “From the Human Doing to Human Being,” we start to find really beautiful, playful ways to answer the question: Who am I? From a level of relationships, experiences, and memories, and the little idiosyncrasies that I probably don't want you to know about me, but later on you start to celebrate. These are the quirks that make Ben Crowe, Ben. And when we start to celebrate those and communicate those, it's pretty cool.
ER: I loved your invitation for us all to write a to-be list. Could you share a little bit about that?
BC: Yeah, exactly. When you can separate what you do from who you are, one of the simplest exercises we do with people along this journey to make sense of their story, is to write a to-be list rather than a to-do list. I often challenge people, “Tomorrow morning when you wake up, rather than write a to-do list, write a to-be list.” And you write down the words that best describes what kind of human do you want to be? Do you want to be playful or grateful or kind or courageous or happy or caring?
"There's so many things in life we can't control, but the human we want to be is not one of them."
The crazy thing about that exercise is, whatever you wrote down next against your to-be list, you're in total control of that human, right? There's so many things in life we can't control, but the human we want to be is not one of them. And you can redefine your definition of success today or tomorrow. So, if I said I want to be playful, then my curiosity goes, "Okay, how can Ben Crowe be more playful today?" And your imagination starts to play around. Then you can apply those words to the various roles in your life, or the various passions in your life. So, I'm no longer a leader, I'm a vulnerable leader. And what that looks like can be my definition of success. I'm no longer a dad, I'm a playful dad or a caring friend or whatever. So, yeah, just a way of bringing more beingness to our everyday lives, a to-be list is one of the simplest ways to start.
ER: Yeah, it's really powerful. Thanks for walking us through that. I'm going to write one tomorrow morning. And just a final question, if people are engaging with your work in the audiobook, you've written the nine perspective shifts, have you anticipated people to listen to it, start to finish? Can they drop in and out like a podcast episode, almost, of these shifts? How are you thinking about people listening?
BC: Yeah, it's a great question. It's not sequential. Life is messy and we learn in different ways at different stages along our journey when we're stuck. You know when you can read the same book three or four times or listen to it three or four times, but it's the third time that it kind of lands. It's the same with these perspective shifts. I can see people re-listening to a chapter three or four times, because you'll find something different. Normally, when I give a talk, people walk out with, I don't know, 15, 20 pages of notes, and they'll come and listen to me again and again. And often it's the third time where it starts to land.
ER: It sings to them.
BC: Yeah, they might understand it on an intellectual level, but when you tap into your own imagination and your own learned experience, and you apply that wisdom or that principle to your own lives, it starts to connect emotionally. We go from our head into our heart, and that's when true learning, in my opinion, takes place.
So, the word “remind,” sometimes we have to remind ourselves and re-listen to re-learn, to have these perspective shifts. So, in the same way that the book, I think people will read it with a highlighted pen and just scribbling everything, I want it to be quite messy and quite usable. I think it's the same with the audiobook. I think people will listen to certain chapters a few times. The great thing about it, in my opinion anyway, is that you can pick it up from anywhere.
ER: Yeah, I love that too.
BC: And within 30 seconds, you're going to have some wisdom that might be relevant to you or to someone else. That was very deliberate. As you said, there's a lot in the book, so it's not a quick read, or it might be quick to listen to. The goal, though, is to come back to these themes and take down some notes along the way as you're listening to the book. I think if it's worth remembering, it's worth writing down. So yeah, maybe I'll develop a journal alongside the audiobook.
ER: Good idea.
BC: But I think it's more so than a sequential approach, something I'm hoping that'll be a bit of something people can come back to many, many times.
ER: Oh, I'm sure they will. Ben, thank you so much for sharing your wisdoms with us today.
BC: Thanks very much.
ER: For everyone listening, this conversation is just a doorway. Ben's audiobook, Where the Light Gets In, walks you through his nine perspective shifts that you can return to again and again, in whatever order speaks to you. If something you heard today stayed with you, that's your cue. Let it land. And when you're ready, Ben is there to guide you.
